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Today's episode is sponsored in part by Yahoo Finance, pork bun, Indeed, Airbnb, and Shopify. Yahoo Finance is the number one financial destination. For financial news and analysis, visit the brand behind every great investor, yahoofinance. Com. Build your digital brand and manage all your links from one spot with pork bun. Get your. Bio domain and link in bio bundle for just $5 at pork bun. Com/profiting. Attract interview and hire all in one place with Indeed. Get a $75-sponsored job credit at indeed. Com/profiting. Generate extra income by hosting your home on Airbnb. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb. Com/host. Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you grow your business. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify. Com/profiting. As always, you can find all of our incredible deals in the show notes.

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Money is a tool. I think for so many people, feel like money is the goal. If money is the goal, you're never going to be happy. But if you can think of money as a tool and you can reframe the way you view it, money is not this thing to grasp after, I got to have that. I got to have more of that. It becomes this treadmill that you never get off. Joel and Matt, co-hosts of the podcast How to Money. With 30 plus million podcast downloads. They are energized by the mission of reaching people with practical money-saving advice. There's this fancy psychological term called mimetic desire, and it basically means that so much of what we desire is based on what we see other people doing. When we're basing our response and we're living life and we're spending money by reflecting what other people are doing, we're not actually working towards achieving our own goals that we've intrinsically come up with. The ability to decide where you're going to spend your money on purpose, as opposed to you accidentally spend your money. I think that's what a budget is. We're the rubber meets the road.

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Most people don't what they're spending. They don't know where their money is going. What is it that we want money to do for us? If you can see money as what it is, it is a tool to be able to help you achieve those things that you care about and that you want in life, and you put it in its proper place. To me, that's the secret.

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There are small things in the here and now that help remind us as to why it is that we're being smart with our money. The number one life hack is Young and Profiters.

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Today, we are talking all about personal finance because it's super important for us to have our personal finances in order so that we can be young and profiting now. And later on down the line, when we're 80, 90 years old, we don't want to have to keep working. We want to be old and profiting. We want to make sure that our money that we make now is working for us later. And finance can pretty boring, which is why I brought on Joel and Matt from the How to Money podcast, because they're all about making personal finance fun. And this is definitely going to be a fun conversation. We're going to talk all about personal financing, how to get into the right money mindset, how to not make money so taboo in terms of our conversations and talking about money with our friends. We're going to talk about spending, saving hacks, and so much more. So this is going to be a fun conversation. I can't wait for it. So without further ado, Joel and Matt, welcome to Young and Profiting podcast.

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Thanks for having us.

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Yeah, we're happy to be here.

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Yeah, I'm psyched for this interview. It's not often that I talk to two people at once, but two is always better than one. You guys are the host of the popular podcast called How to Money. So my first question is, how did you guys meet and what was the origin story of this podcast?

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I'll kick it off. We are best buds, literally. Irl, in real life, we are best friends. We met in our neighborhood that my wife and I purchased a home. You and your wife bought there. This is coming up on... We should have a friend anniversary.

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It's almost like 15 years ago now, right?

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It's been a long, long time. Our wives hit it off as well. We got to be best buds. And gosh, we saw a need. The short answer is, how did we start the podcast? We saw a need in the market for a show that was casual, that felt like you're hanging out with two dudes who also happen to like craft beer because that's how a lot of our hangs started. Just the two of us were having a craft beer. That was one the things that united us back in the day. We'd always find ourselves talking about not only money, generally speaking, but also real estate investing. At the time, we were both really ramping that up in both of our lives. It basically started as an extension of our natural friendship. That's how the podcast kicked it off.

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It's interesting, too, because Matt says we saw a need. There were so many personal finance podcasts out there. In some ways, you could say, What need? There's so many people delivering that content. But I think there's always room. If you have a viewpoint, if you have a passion, there's always room for you in that space. It's something Matt and I thought we had a unique take and a different way of delivering really important content to people so that we could reach a set of folks who might not be interested in yesterday's It's just some personal finance content.

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Yeah, and I know a big thing that you guys try to do is really make finance fun. Why was it important for you to try to bring the fun into finance? Because I know you guys are having beers on the show and just keeping it more casual.

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I We'll say the early episodes, we try to steer folks away from those because we did focus maybe a little too much, literally on the beer, because we would actually talk about the beer in the first 10 minutes of the episode. We quickly learned, it's nice to have that there, but let's pump that to the back end of the podcast. But the fun part of it, nobody wants to feel like they're sitting in Ben Stein's personal finance class where you're just sitting there being delivered the facts. Because honestly, and we talked about this recently, the actual fundamentals, they're honestly not that difficult. But how can you deliver it in such a way that's engaging, that makes you want to engage with it, as opposed to it being something that you feel you have to do? I don't know. There should be this personal finance pinnacle that we're all striving towards, as opposed to feeling this drudgery that we're just bogged down with.

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I'm definitely going to talk to you guys about that later because I'm classic ADHD. Finance is so boring. All I want to do is just make money and not pay attention to budgeting and all the boring stuff. So we're going to talk about that. But first, I want to talk about working with your friends. I had an experience a while ago where I hired one of my closest friends, and she became my stylist. She was like an onsite producer, and it was a terrible idea. It was just terrible. It switched the dynamic. But then on the flip side, my coworkers who are now on my executive team have become my best friends, but they started first as people who worked for me, and then they became my friends, and that has worked out okay. So I'm just curious, working with your friends. I know you guys are with iHeart. You're definitely monetizing. So it's not just for fun, it's a business. What's it like working with your friends?

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Yes, definitely. It's our full-time gig. We do 30 plus hours a week or whatever, the two of us. I will say, I think the key for best friends working together is communication. But then the other thing, too, is having different skill sets and having complementary skill sets. And that is one of the things that has been really, really helpful for us. We both have a passion for the information, but then when it comes to the tasks that each of us engage in, it's night and day, the things that we like. Matt's very detail-oriented. I'm super big picture-oriented. So he compliments me in ways like, If I was trying to do this on my own, I would fall flat on my face. Probably vice versa, right? We really do need each other's talents to make it go. It's like you have friends, and some of your friends you know would be great travel friends. You're like, Let's go to the Azores for a week. This is going to be great. But other friends that you have, you're like, I don't think they're the people I can travel with. It's just a different vibe. You don't get it with them.

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I think you have to think through the same thing. Maybe they're a great friend, but maybe we shouldn't be in this working relationship.

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Maybe that's not going to pan out as well. Yeah, I totally agree. Complementary skill sets. That's huge.

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Do you guys ever feel like you get sick of each other? All right, working with you all week. I don't want to hang out with you and go to the pool party this weekend. Do you ever feel that way?

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He gets that. I don't get that way.

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Joel is like an extrovert to the max. He's a maximalist when it comes to social hang, friends. I truly do I don't get energized by being out and seeing folks. It's just I'm a lazy extrovert. I'm not always going to initiate stuff, but when I get out there, man, I'm pumped. It's fun. I'm like, shutting it down. I have to get pulled away because the babysitter is trying to... Whatever. I do feed off of the energy from hanging out with folks. It's just I also want to do other stuff. I want to be able to sit by myself and read some. I want to be able to go for a run by myself. I want to go get my workout in. I want to organize my garage. They're boring dad stuff that I want to do as well.

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It needs to get done.

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What are you talking about?

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It needs to get done. These things need to get done. Well, it sounds like you guys have a great working relationship, and you figured out how to make it work for you both. So I interview a lot of financial experts. And what I find is that usually people who dedicate their entire life to personal finance and teaching people about it, tend to have some trauma as a kid with money or something that really impacted them that made them say, I'm never going to be broke. This is never going to happen to me or my family. So I'm sure you guys have some that with your lives. So why don't we start with Joel?

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Therapy session time. I'm ready. I'm ready. Let's do this. And it's true. It's funny. Matt and I actually have really different backgrounds, too, with how we came to be obsessed with personal finance or interested in it, at least. Probably obsessed. For me, it did stem from some trauma. My parents, seriously, they're like my heroes. I look up to them. I I want to be like my dad more than anybody else in this world. But he wasn't great with money, and my mom wasn't great with money either. There were some significant issues that they came into. There were a lot of money fights. At one point, when I was about 12 years old, my parents declared bankruptcy. After that, they had just bought this brand new Dodge Durango. I still remember that it was going to be repossessed, but we didn't know when that was going to happen. It was like this cloud hanging over our head. Finally, one morning, the car was gone. It was out of the driveway. I just remember as a That hit me. I was like, I don't want to ever argue with my future spouse about money. I don't ever want to have these clouds hanging over my head where I feel like they're shifting sand that I'm standing on all the time.

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And I don't think money is the end all, be all solution to all problems. But my goodness, I at least want that not to be some problem that I'm constantly facing in my life. So it was this pivot moment for me as a child going through that. And I think it's funny, I had an older sister and a younger sister, and I think both of them... My older sister was off chasing boys. My My younger sister was too young to really understand it. But for me, it left an indelible mark even more than it did for them.

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It's so interesting to think about what age you were at and what stage in life you were in and why it impacted you so much. What about you, Matt?

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Boring story. I've got nothing. I mean, I grew up, I would say, in a great household that was, I would say, dare I say, fortunate as far as my upbringing and money. It was talked about well, the prioritization of giving money away. So that was pretty high as well. The models that were set before me as far as how do I come into money? Oh, you have to work for it. These are the patterns that were laid out. I'm certainly fortunate in that way. And so when it came to getting more into personal finance, it was more out of necessity. It was my wife, and soon to be wife, combining our finances and realizing, Oh, man, this isn't something we've really talked about before. And we were about to get married, actually, and we were going to premarital counseling. I realized enough at that point in life to know that, Man, this needs to be something we're talking about. And we weren't talking about it in those little sessions. And so for me, it was, We got to find some shared language. We need to read some books. We need to go to a live money conference where they're talking about these things.

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And luckily, she was totally game. She thought it was super nerdy, but it really helped us to get on the same page so that when we did have these discussions around money, A, we're speaking the same language, but we were able to quickly identify some of the different goals that we had for ourselves. And for us, some of those early goals were we were fortunate to not have any debt. We both graduated student loan free. So for us, it was launching an initial business that we both knew that we wanted to be a part of, that we wanted to basically work together. So essentially, that was how I entered into the personal finance space. It was more out of necessity, taking some financial risks, realizing that if we don't have things buttoned up, how are we going to pay rent? How are we going to put food on the table? And then slowly ramping it up from there.

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Yeah, let me dig deeper on that because talking about money is so taboo. At work, people don't talk about money. Even couples don't talk about money. Families don't talk about money. People don't talk to a special Especially they're kids about money. That's a really weird thing to do as a parent, I think a lot of the times. So why is it so taboo? Why do you feel like people don't have these conversations? And what's your recommendation in terms of the cadence of conversations and the type of conversations you should have?

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Well, I'll say the first thing you should ask all your friends is how much they make and how much they have invested. That's right.

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Let's start with Paula here. Let's say, so often it's because there's so much shame in regards to money. People feel shame in regards to how they handle money It wasn't talked about growing up. The only way you hear about money oftentimes is in a negative context. Then compound, maybe even some religious traditions. I think some things have become misinterpreted over the years, and it's money is the root of all evil. When it's not.

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The love of money, that's the root of all evil.

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It's even just a misinterpretation of that original passage or whatever. But I think people feel that deeply, and they don't have the tools. I think personal finance education is just about to be required in half of the states. But when we were growing up, that wasn't the case. And so you didn't get any formal education. Your parents probably didn't talk about it much. And when you ask questions, they pooh-poohed it like, Hey, it's not okay to talk about money. What are you doing? Why are you trying to broach this subject? When you're just curious as a kid, you're very curious. And so I think we need to let that curiosity flow, and we actually need to lean into with kids. We need to start those conversations early and young. It doesn't have to be, Here's how much I make, here's our net worth. It doesn't have to get that serious. But like my little dude, he's four years old. We gave him a piggy bank the other day. He just likes putting the coins in it. It's like, How can we create a familiarity with money? And then we're planning a family vacation. How can we talk about, Well, why do we choose this hotel over this one?

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This one costs less money. Or, Are we going to go to Disney or not? Because that's a really expensive trip. Those are the conversations that we can have. And maybe don't make it shameful about what we can't afford it. I hate that cop-out. Actually, we're choosing to do other things with our money that are really important to our family, too. I think it's important to have those discussions instead of shutting down the conversation or making it sound like, We can't go to McDonald's tonight because it's too expensive and we can't afford it. That just feels like, Okay, I'm just going to shut up and stop asking questions, right? And as a kid, you feel out of place. And so no, you want to welcome those questions, welcome those conversations, but you also want to make sure you're encouraging them.

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I really like the fact that you're saying, Switch the dynamic of the messaging. It's not that we can't afford it. We have other priorities. I think that's really healthy for kids because as a kid, if you hear, I can't afford, I can't afford, then you have this, Oh, money is so hard to get. Money money is so hard to achieve. Life is not abundant. But if you switch it as priorities, that's such a healthier way to learn about money as a kid.

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The ability to second that was important because I think a lot of folks, they latch on to the, Oh, we can't afford that. It's like emotional psychological cover for not spending money as opposed to choosing and being proactive with your money and how it is that you want to divert your funds. That's huge. But the same model that Joel laid out when it comes to how it is we talk about money with our kids, that's the same thing we can do with our friends as well in the workplace and just folks we know in the neighborhood. It's just cool. You can start topical and, oh, man, you got that new whatever. We're talking recently about the Lexus GX. It looks freaking dope. There's no way that either one of us are going to I have shit a lot the money to do that. But if someone does, okay, you start having that conversation. What's financing look like on that thing? You start at a more superficial surface level, and then you can slowly dig in deeper because money is an integral part of how we're able to live and how we afford the things we do and how we choose to spend our time.

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And so it seems like such a wasted opportunity to never talk about it. But again, you can't dive right into what's your savings rate, though, because that's just a little too Too much. You can't cry.

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I think people are dying to talk about it, too. It is taboo, and they're like, why? Then they feel like they can't broach this subject. It's the thing, it's the tool that we have to use every single day of our lives, essentially. It's a shame that it's a taboo because I think everybody really does want to get it out from under the shadows. They want to have discussions. They've got lots of questions about money, right? But we've made it taboo and wrong and out of place to ask those questions. We're doing a disservice to people being able to grow and thrive and even ask about making more money. That's something you talk about a lot, Holly. And why is that not okay to want to make more money? And then we can talk about great things to do with it, too, that are beautiful for your family, your community, for nonprofits that you love. There's all sorts of great things you can do with money. And when we make money out to be the bad guy, it's really wrong for him. It negatively impacts so many people.

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Yeah. And I know older generations and immigrant parents are really weird about talking about how much money they make. I know for a fact, my mom on this podcast podcast, I'll be like, Oh, I had a master class, give me 200 grand, blah, blah. She's like, Stop telling people how much money you make. It's rude, it's bragging. And I'm just like, But I'm trying to teach people that it's possible that you could be a female entrepreneur and make money. So what are your thoughts on that? Could it come off as bragging if you're talking about your success in money? Or how do you feel like people should think about that?

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I think it depends on your relationship with that individual, right? And so for you, whether it's on a podcast or whether it's being interviewed viewed with somebody else, if they feel like they know you, I think it's fine to share things. I don't know. So much of it comes down to the individual, too. It's just like someone who creates content, any content creator, whether you're a writer, there's a lot of talk about, well, how do you interpret things that were written in the past and just how the ideas of what's acceptable has changed over time. To a certain extent, you can't worry about that too much. But I think so much of it comes down to relationship and the relationship you have with that individual, specifically if you're talking to somebody one-on-one. And that's why I think it's so important to engage with folks around you. It's so important to talk about money in a way that feels normal, as opposed to, let's say, if that's the first time you ever talked about money with a friend, it's just like, why are you telling me this? This isn't something we ever talk about. And all of a sudden you're talking about just how well you've done.

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But if it's something that's already a part of the lexicon of your friendship, then all of a sudden, it's totally normal. And I think it's totally cool.

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That makes sense. So how long ago did you guys start your show, your podcast?

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Almost six years ago now, I guess, or right around six years ago. We started same time.

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We started same time, 2018-ish.

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Yeah, that's right. Yeah, exactly.

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So we started around the same time. That's really interesting. Did it take off right away? Did it take a couple of years? What was your growth like as a podcast?

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Yeah, a lot of growth happened. It's slow and steady. Our philosophy early on was, let's be triple A at this. If we have to put in the time to be Major League, we don't have the for that right now. We have day jobs, we have family, but we can't be single A. We can't just be complete bums here. We have to really amp up our game because we think we can create something great. But in the beginning, the Major League production was just out of the question. We didn't have the ability to actually pull that off. So, Triple A was our mindset. We worked really hard to be consistent, to put a great product, put real thought into the episodes we were creating. So they'd be helpful, they'd be distinct, they'd be different than a lot of the other podcasts out there on the market. And so we began to develop our tribe. That's when we caught iHeart's attention, and they were like, Hey, we're looking for a personal finance podcast over here. What do you think? You guys want to come on? And that's really when the growth started to accelerate. They certainly had a big megaphone, and they turned it on, which really helped us find even more of our audience.

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Oh, they helped you grow your show. That's awesome. Yeah, for sure. I don't know if you guys know this. I have a podcast network. Yes. And it's actually the number one business and self-improvement podcast network. I signed Jenna Kutcher and Amy Porterfield, and John Lee Dumas and Trent Shilton. So if iHeart doesn't work out, you guys have a home here. For sure. Yeah, media. So what do you guys have? Just curious, you have a guarantee at iHeart. Is that your structure with them?

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We don't talk about this often. Obviously, we don't talk about it. Well, I shouldn't say obviously. I'm sure there's plenty of personal finance shows where they do dive into more than nuts and bowls, like a state of the Union, but for a podcast on the back end. For our show, we do tend to focus on the day-to-day personal finance stuff. We resigned with them for another couple of years, so we can talk to you about the beginning of 2026, perhaps. That's right. But yes, they've got- He knows where I'll be in the beginning. I know. Honestly, we negotiated down from... I think they wanted three plus years, and we're like,How about two or two or even less?That's a long time. We're willing to say, Yeah, we'll probably do this for the next couple of years for sure, because I don't know. We love it. That's the thing. When you have something that you love to do, at this point, it's hard for us to envision doing anything else. Joel, he literally lives two miles that way. I live two miles that way. We both either ride our bikes. You can see on the video here, this isn't a fancy spot.

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We read a carriage house behind some old 100-year-old home here in our little town. We call it our Clubhouse. We just hang out. We get to read about personal finance. We record episodes and hopefully put helpful content out there for folks to better their financial standing.

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But it fits in with the lifestyle we want to live. It's so great. Yeah.

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Yeah. Podcasting is awesome. I brought that up because I want people to understand that podcasting It's really a business. All three of us have been doing this for six years. We built our shows to a certain amount. We were consistent. It takes time. This is not like a flash pan. You're going to make a lot of money. But if you're consistent with podcasting, it really is a cash cow, especially right now. So congratulations on all your success of your show. You mentioned you're doing it full-time. I know that previously you guys had your own gigs going on. You guys were on radio and photography, I believe. So are you doing this full-time? This is your only gig or you guys got other things going on?

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Full-time, yeah. We both invest in real estate. So like I mentioned, I guess earlier, we're small-time, mom-and-pop style landlords. But other than that, this is where we pour most of our efforts. And that's not to say, and Joel hinted at how much time we are giving it. It is our full-time gig, but we're past the stage where it's so important to us that we're working nights and weekends. We give ourselves a pretty dang posh schedule. We're living the lifestyle that we want to live right now. Joel's got three kids, I've got four. We've got other priorities within our community, other things that we want to do with our time now. Instead, the ability for us to come in here, work hard while we're here for sure, but at the same time, know that, All right, I'm going to get out of here. I'm going to go spend some time with my family.

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That's what I want to do. That's what a lot of people want, too, right? And you can get caught up and consumed in growth, growth, growth, and you can have dollar signs over your eyeballs. And it is a wonderful thing to make money and to work towards increasing your income. But it is another thing to be be content with what you've achieved and actually begin to dial back a little bit, too, and just enjoy some of the fruits of your labor. So I think it's a really important message that we don't talk about very much in the personal finance community. It's usually, grind, grind, grind, get it, hustle. And there might be a season for that and a necessity for that to a certain degree. But then also maybe be willing to dial it back at some point when you've got other things that matter just as much. And that money gives you the flexibility to do that, right?

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I love the fact that you just called it out. There's seasons for doing that. And sometimes you might need to take four years, nose to the ground, which sounds like we all did it to grow your show. And then now you've got this huge audience that you can monetize and do other things to your point, hang out with your family, hang out with the community. Have your own life because life is not just about work. Let's hold that thought and take a quick break with our sponsors. Young and Profiters, I don't know about you, but I love to make my home someplace that I'm proud of. And that's why I spent a lot of time on my apartment, trying to make it my perfect pink palace, all set with the velvet couch, an in-home studio, and skyline views of the city. And while I love my apartment, I can get really sick of it. I can get really uninspired. And if you work from home, you know exactly what I'm talking about. But the good news is, like many of you guys, I'm an entrepreneur, and that means that I can work from anywhere. And finally, I decided to make good use of my work flexibility for the first time.

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This holiday break, the sun was calling my name, I packed my bags and my boyfriend, and we headed to Venice Beach, California. We got a super cute bungalow, and we worked from home for an entire month. The fresh air and slower pace helped to inspire some really cool new ideas for my business. And now I'm hitting the ground running in Q1. Airbnb was the one that helped me make these California dreams come true. And in fact, Airbnb comes in clutch for me time and time again, whether it's finding the perfect Airbnb home for our annual executive team outing or booking a vacation where my extended family can fit all in one place. Airbnb always makes it a great experience. And you know me, I'm always thinking of my latest business venture. So when I found out that a lot of my successful friends and clients host on Airbnb, I got curious, and I I want to follow suit because it seems like such a great way to generate passive income. So now we have a plan to spend more time in Miami, and then we'll host our place on Airbnb to earn some extra money whenever we're back on the East Coast.

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So I can't wait for that. And a lot of people don't realize they've got an Airbnb right under their own noses. You can Airbnb your place or a spare room if you're out of town for even just a few days or weeks. You could do what I did and work remotely and then Airbnb your place to fund your trip. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb. Com/host. That's airbnb. Com/host to find out how much your home is worth. Hey, app fam. Starting my LinkedIn Secrets Masterclass was one of the best things I've ever done for my business. I didn't I don't have to waste time figuring out all the nuts and bolts of setting up a website that had everything I needed, like a way to buy my course, subscription offerings, chat functionality, and so on, because it was super easy with Shopify. Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business, whether you're selling your first product, finally taking your side hustle full-time, or making half a million dollars from your master class like me. And it doesn't matter if you're selling digital products or vegan cosmetics.

[00:27:31]

Shopify helps you sell everywhere, from their all-in-one e-commerce platform to their in-person POS system. Shopify has got you covered as you scale. Stop those online window shoppers in their tracks and turn them into loyal customers with the internet's best Kimberding checkout. I'm talking 36 % better on average compared to other options out there. Shopify powers 10 % of all e-commerce in the US, from huge shoe brands like All Birds to vegan cosmetic brands like Thrive Cosmetics. Actually, back on episode 253, I interviewed the CEO and founder of Thrive Cosmetics, Carissa Bodnar, and she told me about how she set up her store with Shopify, and it was so plug and play. Her store exploded right away. Even for a makeup artist type girl with no coding skills, it was easy for her to open up a shop and start her dream job as an entrepreneur. That was nearly a decade ago, and now it's even easier to sell more with less, thanks to AI tools like Shopify Magic. And you never have to worry about figuring it out on your own. Shopify's award-winning help is there to support your success every step of the way.

[00:28:42]

So you can focus on the important stuff, the stuff you like to do. Because businesses that grow, grow with Shopify. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify. Com/profiting, and that's all lowercase. If you want to start that side hustle you've always dreamed of, if you to start that business you can't stop thinking about, if you have a great idea, what are you waiting for? Start your store on Shopify. Go to Shopify. Com/profiting now to grow your business no matter what stage you're in. Again, that's Shopify. Com/ Shopify. Com/profiting for a $1 per month trial period. Again, that's Shopify. Com/profiting. So let's get into actually meat and potatoes, finance things. You guys are really big advocates for having a why behind your money. So talk to me about why that's so important to have.

[00:29:40]

I would say if we're only looking at the nuts and bolts of personal finance and of money, what we're going to create and what we're going to turn into are a bunch of practitioners who know the right things to do. But then when the slightest little speed bumps comes along in our journey, it completely derails us. Or maybe there aren't any speed bumps. Maybe there are very few hurdles. Maybe you are really talented at what it is that you do. In fact, you're a great practitioner of personal finances and some of the different tools and steps necessary to grow your networth. Maybe you get to the end. Hala, what's great about how we've gotten to be professionals. We're not talking about podcasting here, we're talking about careers. When you do something for hours a day, weeks, years, and even decades, you're going to get really good at something. The temptation oftentimes is to continue to do that thing without really looking up and figuring out where you are, what it is that you're striving after. That's when you arrive at the end of a career, at the end of a stent at a company, and you're thinking, What am I doing with my life?

[00:30:45]

What am I doing with my time? Do I want to be doing this? Do I find this fulfilling anymore? Or is it just about the money?

[00:30:49]

Typically, you're in your 50s when you start asking that question, too, right? Yeah.

[00:30:52]

On our show, we call it the craft beer equivalence. What is it that you're spending money on right now? In addition to being smart with your money and investing for the future. But there are small things in the here and now that help remind us as to why it is that we're being smart with our money. Because it's so important to help sustain us, whether it's overcoming some of those obstacles in the moment or knowing why it is that you're seeking after that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

[00:31:20]

There's this fancy psychological term called mimetic desire. And it basically means that so much of what we desire is based on what we see other people doing. And it could be just a most basic example. I've got kids, so I see this all the time. Something as stupid as a little $2 rubber ball, it could be unplayed with for months. One kid finds it and then everybody wants it. It's the dumbest thing. Why do you guys want this all of a sudden. And then the first kid says, I'm not interested anymore. All of a sudden, nobody's interested in that ball. And we're like that as adults. It's amazing. We haven't lost some of that. That's the keeping up with the Joneses belief, right? Oh, my neighbor got a brand new car. All of a sudden, my a four-year-old car doesn't seem as fancy, as nice anymore, as posh. I should upgrade, too. And when we're basing our response and we're living life and we're spending money by reflecting what other people are doing, we're not actually working towards achieving our own goals that we've intrinsically come up with. I think when we come up with that why, when we say, sit down with our spouse or ourselves, if we're single, and just say, What is it that I care about?

[00:32:23]

What is it that we want to achieve? Do we really want to retire at 42? Or what is it that we want money to do for us? Then you can funnel your money appropriately. Instead of just funneling it into the ways that most people do, the stock American lifestyle, you're going to be happier because you're making those decisions on purpose instead of making them by default, by osmosis, partaking in the classic American lifestyle that most people are doing.

[00:32:45]

To me, that makes a lot of sense. Setting a vision so that you can actually manifest what you want, make the right decisions, not be making decisions to your point based on the Jones's next door and what they're doing. And if you don't know what you want, you're never going to achieve it. So It makes total sense. So a big part of this for families and things like that is creating a budget. Now, I brought this up earlier. I am like, total entrepreneur, always creating new offers, just making money, making money, making money. And I never think about budgeting. I just make more money. I literally don't have a budget. I have zero debt. I'm doing good, but I don't think about a budget. Now, to me, it's really boring. How can we make budgeting more fun and not feel like it's restrictive?

[00:33:31]

Jules, just patting me on the back over here because I'm more of the budget guy. I'll say first off that I think if that's working for you, that's totally fine. I don't think that you, in particular, needs a budget because If you've got a system in place, if you are predisposed to work in a certain way and that's working for you, I think that that can be an excellent way for someone to go through life.

[00:33:53]

If you're paying yourself first and you're investing regularly and you've got no debt.

[00:33:57]

If you've got good patterns and good behaviors.

[00:33:59]

You're living healthy and you You don't need to put your nose in the spreadsheet. It's working out.

[00:34:01]

But you also seem to be more of an outlier. I would say that you are great at launching things. You're quite entrepreneurial. And a lot of folks aren't. A lot of folks, they're more in the middle. And so when it comes to making a budget. It's a way for them, when you've got perhaps scarcer resources, that you got to find a way to allocate those in a way, like Joel said, that aligns with your values. And that's all a budget is. People look at it as more of something that keeps you from living life. And this is one of the conversations that my wife and I had before we got married and we were talking about budgeting. And in fact, it's not keeping you from life, but it's you proactively saying, this is how we're going to spend our money. We recently talked about how it's almost like a journal or a diary, but for your money. There's a whole lot of attention right now being paid towards mindfulness. I think that's great. And oftentimes journaling and being reflective is a big part of that. Thinking through yourself, your life, how you feel, how it is you want to spend your time.

[00:35:02]

That's what a budget is, but for your money. Budget, it's numbers. In my mind, it's the diary equivalent, but for your finances. And so the ability to decide where you're going to spend your money on purpose as opposed to you accidentally spend your money. I think, simply, that's what a budget is.

[00:35:19]

Where the rubber meets the road, most people don't know what they're spending. They don't know where their money is going. When you look at the numbers about subscriptions and stuff in this country, everything runs on subscription now. And the average person assumes they're spending, I don't know, like 100 bucks a month on subscriptions, and what they're actually spending is $230 a month on subscriptions. And so it's that difference between what you think you're doing and there's extra money falling out the bottom for stuff that you don't actually care about. This happens all the time. Eating out has surpassed groceries. We used to spend two times the amount on groceries that we used to spend eating out. Now we spend more eating out than we do on groceries. I like eating out as much as the next person, but do it knowing the consequences, because the The average meal that you pay for eating out is 16 bucks. The average meal cooked at home is four bucks. And so what is it that you want? Do you want the down payment for the house or do you love eating out more than that? And it's okay to make either one of those choices, as long as you're doing it with your eyes wide open and budgeting, I I think helps you do that.

[00:36:16]

This reminds me of a conversation I had with Ramit Sati, and he talks about money dials and deciding what your dials are, where you're going to spend most of your money. And it's okay. Some people want to spend it on designer bags, some people want to spend it on vacations, some people to spend it on food. There's no right or wrong way to spend your money. It's your preferences, right? So I read an article, actually had a lot of stats about millennials that were really depressing. It said, 95% of millennials are saving less than the recommended amount. I think most of my listeners are millennials, and we're not that young anymore. We're in our 30s, some of them early 40s even.

[00:36:53]

That's us, Ala. We're the geriatric millennials. Yeah, same here.

[00:36:56]

I'm like middle millenn, you know? Why do What do you guys think that we're unable to save or our mindset is not there? What do you think is the blockers of us? Because I think it's a lot of mindset of why we're not saving.

[00:37:10]

I think there's a lot of mindset because when you look at the numbers, we had Jean Twenge on our podcast not too long ago. She is the foremost expert of generational differences. And early on, it looked like millennials were behind the eight ball when it came to their finances. But current data shows that millennials are actually doing quite well when it comes to income. So the problem is-Compared to previous generations at this stage in their life.

[00:37:31]

That's right.

[00:37:32]

So millennials are doing better than you might think they are. Our culture is in a numeristic space. It's like, why would I even invest for tomorrow when tomorrow is going to be crap? Or why would I start saving because everything's going to hell in a hand basket. Of course, if you're nihilistic, why are you saving and investing if you don't think that there's a brighter tomorrow? And I think that there are things to be concerned about. I'm not Pollyanna. I'm not of the belief that everything is always getting better. But would you rather transport in a time capsule back to any other period in human history in any other place? Most people, if asked that in a rational context, would say, no, there's a reason people are trying to get into this country for the most part and not leave it, even though some people talk about it. So I do think we have to change our perspective. We have to realize that we can, we have more control over our future than we think. And even a small percentage or two that's allocated extra into savings or investing, those little things, those small cuts, and then those small increases to saving and investing.

[00:38:30]

Over time, when you understand the power of compounding returns, it makes a difference. But you have to start with that mindset that I can do that and that there's a reason to do it.

[00:38:40]

I love that. I feel like for me, I should do an app where I make myself look really old to put it on my refrigerator or something and be like, Save for her because she's not going to be able to work on the computer 24/7 when she's 90 years old and can't see.

[00:38:53]

Have you done that with some of the different face apps before? Because Joel and I have. You have? Hey, it's frightening, but But yes, we literally did that as a technique. It's just fun to see what you might look like as an 80-year-old. But also just to put you in touch with that future version of you, especially when you go into debt. We haven't even talked about debt, but just mindless spending, the inability to save that money and stock it aside and invest in the market, you're stealing from future you. And so when you have a tangible image of yourself as an older person, for some folks who are more visual, I think it can be an incredible tool to help you to see that, no, no, this isn't for tomorrow you to figure out. That's not a separate person, even though it feels like somebody that's completely removed. That is you. And you're going to be dealing with the consequences of the actions or inactions that you're taking today.

[00:39:44]

I totally agree. You guys were just talking about the importance of the little decisions that add up the compounding effect. Let's talk about mindful spending, because I know you guys have a lot of hacks about this. What are some ways that we can become less impulsive with our spending and make better decisions?

[00:40:01]

Delete TikTok off your phone and Instagram. It would be some truth to that, right?

[00:40:07]

I mean, we would all be better if we did. There really is, because you're talking about the mimetic effects of psychology, and that has so much more to do with it than I think we even realized, because we see it in very obvious ways when you've got TikTok shop.

[00:40:20]

Stanley Water bottle.

[00:40:21]

And you've got ads being pushed to you. And I'm like, Oh, I didn't know I needed those shorts, but I'm going to buy those. Those are obvious forms. But even just the way we consume social media as opposed to actually relating with one another, you see things and you think, Oh, that's something I need to include. Oh, that's something I need to buy, as opposed to living more in community and interacting face to face and having real relationship. In my mind, that becomes less of a priority A because you're just focused on more important things when you're hanging out with somebody as opposed to, Oh, I like the way that jacket looks on him, or, Oh, man, her shoes, those look awesome. Maybe I need a pair of We joke about social media, but I really... I don't want to be the old... Too late. You got to delete the apps. But it's so freaking true. It's so true.

[00:41:09]

Yeah, and paying back on that, I do think serving somebody else, it's crazy. It sounds really weird while we talk about service, but I think it takes your mind off yourself. I think so much of the time, we are more preoccupied with ourselves. We don't hang out with other people. There's new stats about how much in-person hangs teens have these days, and it's dropped dramatically. We're communicating in nameless faceless ways. We're communicating with potatoes on Twitter or whatever that little fake thing is. There's fake profiles. We're engaging with ridiculous things. The more face-to-face interaction we have and the more we're able to get out of our own needs and wants and desires and able to see what somebody else needs, I think it's really helpful. Just one other practical thing is institute a 48-hour rule. You see something you want and you're like, Oh, I'm pretty sure I need that or really, really want that. Well, have a word doc for something like that. Put it in there and then say, every Saturday morning, I'm going to check and see what I put in there that week. I guarantee you a lot of those things you won't want to purchase anymore.

[00:42:08]

It was in the moment. It was impulsive. It felt like it was going to be so rewarding. You're like, I don't even think I like that color anymore. Putting it on a delay cycle can really help you prevent those impulse purchases which really mess up our budgets.

[00:42:20]

A big part of resisting some of that, too, is being surrounded by folks who share the same values as you. This is going back to the whole community aspect. But like I was talking the new Lexus earlier, and Joel and I, we like talking about cars, especially since we moved out of the city up into the burbs. Cars are more a part of your life. But we almost make it a game to, A, talk about the latest cool car that's caught our eye. But then we embrace the hardship and the suck of having to run home in the rain. Literally, Joel rode home in the middle of a thunder. Maybe the thunderstorm wasn't the smartest thing to embrace. But there are ways change how it is that you think about something. All of a sudden, it goes from being this thing that, oh, my gosh, someone else sees you and they feel bad for you. They're sad that you have to deal with this. You're like, no, I see this as something that's making me stronger. This is something I want to do, and you can almost gamify it.

[00:43:16]

I'm not saying that we're goading each other into making better decisions that are going to benefit us over the long term.

[00:43:22]

And sometimes there are small things in the here. Every Monday, we walk to our local coffee shop. Joel gets a flat white, and get a cortado. We catch up because sometimes we see each other over the weekends, sometimes we don't. Going back to the whole we need space, even though we're best friends comment you made earlier. We're getting the nice coffee. I'll walk out of there with a $22 bag of heirloom coffee from Japan or something like that. There are small ways that you can splurge and treat yourself now, but at the same time avoiding some of the biggest things that set you back. There's a reason why we're highlighting vehicles because it's the second largest line item on people's budgets. And when you make a mistake when it comes to buying a vehicle and you're financing it, and, Oh, by the way, I like that truck. Yeah, it's a $75,000 vehicle.

[00:44:10]

I guess I'll do the eight-year payment cycle.

[00:44:12]

That is so much money. So I can afford it. So think about all the small things that don't even matter if you make this one big mistake when it comes to your finances.

[00:44:21]

I love the 48-hour roll. I have to say that I've been doing that a bit. I do a lot of shopping, right? I'm always paid. I'm an I go to conferences and do photoshoots. So I'm always looking for clothes, and it's a lot of money. And lately, I've been just leaving it in my cart, and then I'll come back two days, three days later, and I'm like, What was I thinking? This is so ugly. I don't even like this. So to your point, I think that's really helpful. Another tip that I saw that you guys had is actually really interesting, which is trying to figure out how many hours you need to work to afford that thing. I love that tip.

[00:44:58]

It puts it in this other context. It's not just numbers floating out of your bank account. It's hours that you've got to go into the office, especially if you don't like your job or you don't like your manager. This is a great way to think about it because you're like, all of a sudden that dress or that new sweater or whatever it was, or the new bike that you want to buy, anything that you want to consume, figure out what's my hourly rate and how many hours of work does this cost me? It just puts it in this new context. It makes it feel more visceral, just like spending with cash oftentimes can feel more visceral than spending with a credit card. We like credit credit cards. Nothing against credit cards. In fact, you can get amazing rewards with credit cards if you use them wisely and you never carry a balance. But thinking about what you're buying and doing the calculations, it's really quick. It'll take 2 seconds. Wait, buying this coffee is going to cost me a quarter of an hour of work or whatever it is.

[00:45:48]

Willing to make that trade-off.

[00:45:49]

Exactly. You're like, Cool, 15 minutes of my time for this delicious coffee for the next two weeks. That's totally worth it. But it definitely opens your eyes in a different way.

[00:45:56]

I like what you said. It changes the context. It reframes it from something that is limitless. Truly, there's no limit to the amount of money, Holland, that you might earn in your lifetime. But there is a limit to the number of years and days that you're going to live. And so when you make that transition from something that is limitless, that grows Those exponentially that can compound down to something, like you said, that's incredibly visceral, where the clock's ticking. Oh, man, it's so much grittier. And that truly is where the rubber meets the road.

[00:46:27]

Yeah. Now, I had an ex-boyfriend who spent way too much money. He always wore Balenciaga. He wore the most expensive stuff.

[00:46:35]

Was he spending it on you, though?

[00:46:37]

He was spending it on me. Okay. He was spending it on me, but I can afford my own stuff. I have my own designer problem. But he was really bad. And he used to have the opposite strategy. He'd be like, okay, I'm buying this $2,000 backpack. If I wear it for two years, that means it's only going to cost $2.75 a day for the next two years if I wear this. And that's how he would decide everything that we do. Oh, if we buy this thing and you wear it for a year, it's only $3 a day. I'm like, this is death by a thousand cuts. You can't think about it this way.

[00:47:07]

He's created his own buy, not, pay, later scenario where he's putting his entire life on payments as opposed to saving up. Well, it sounds like hopefully he wasn't going in debt for that. But man, yeah, that's absolutely what we try to avoid.

[00:47:20]

You mentioned buy now, pay later. That's become so nefarious. It's not that even the way the system is set up is screwing you. It's your own psychology that's putting you over a barrel with buy now, pay later. Because with credit cards, if you don't pay the bill at the end of the month, you're charging an exorbit rate of interest. With buy now, pay later, you pay it off before using it's almost you don't ever pay any interest. But when you look at the stats, it's so nefarious. People that use buy now, pay later, the shopping card is so much larger. People are spending more every time they use it, they're buying stuff they didn't actually need or maybe I'll throw that in there too, because when you chalk it up to four payments, it's almost nothing, right? And that's how we're bankrupting our futures. That's how we don't have enough money to save and invest. And we're trading the things we can acquire in the here and now in losing future freedom.

[00:48:03]

I know another big part of overspending is these triggers that people have. Everybody has their own triggers of what gets them to spend money. So can you talk to us about some of these triggers and how we can avoid them?

[00:48:14]

For me, it's honestly being faced with the actual ad. I'll admit, I'm not a big spender, but if I see something, and I think because I so rarely, quote, unquote, splurge on myself, I oftentimes will find myself going down these paths where I'm spending money. What do you think about triggers, Joel?

[00:48:36]

I think typically, for me, it's something for my family or whatever, and I'm more willing to spend on those things. I'm like you, Holla, where I have a sweet financial buffer, right? I'm living life below my means. But then when it comes to something that gets presented, like a camp right now, we're talking about summer camps for the kids. And it's like, some of those things are crazy expensive. I'm like, We have the money, so let's do it. But sometimes a lack of money actually forces you to be more creative. I think sometimes the way I've been able to build up savings over time has made me be less creative. I actually miss that. I miss that impulse.

[00:49:16]

The scrappiness.

[00:49:17]

Yeah, the scrappiness of youth and not having enough. I think that's probably what triggers me to spend is like, Well, we have the money. Okay, let's do it. Why not? When we probably could find another way to skin that cat.

[00:49:27]

I'm thinking of other examples where folks, oftentimes, if they're, for instance, stressed at work or they have a hard day or something like that, oftentimes, that is the trigger for them to remove themselves from that situation. You do your online shopping. Traditionally, go for a walk in the mall, something like that.

[00:49:44]

It's like, treat yourself. Yeah. I deserve it, right?

[00:49:47]

Take it back to Aziz. But the ability to, I think, find alternatives to that and replace those behaviors with something that you know is a little healthier, whether it's healthier for your wallet or you can also couple it with something else that you know is healthier, healthier for your body, like going for a walk, calling up a friend, where, Hey, this is something you've talked about before. So all of a sudden, now you're accountability partners, and you're like, Man, I had such a hard day. I want to go and get whatever purse that I have an eye in, that I found myself gravitating towards during my lunch. In that way, I'm hammering home the whole community best friends part of it.

[00:50:25]

No, but it's so true. That's what I think about, too. I feel like a lot of triggers is really just jealousy of other people, right? And what they have and wanting to have that. Even though Ramit said, for example, he's always talking about money dials, and he says, not right or wrong if you want to buy really expensive things. But if you're buying really designer-expensive things, it's really probably an insecurity issue at the root of it that you need to figure out how to be more whole, feel like you have more purpose, because otherwise, you're just going to keep spending and spending and spending, and you're never going to spend enough to buy happiness.

[00:51:01]

That's how six-figure earners live paycheck to paycheck because they are making the same mistakes that somebody fresh out of college might, but they're doing it with additional zeros at the end of the expense. Simultaneously, I don't think it's up to us to judge what it is the other folks want to spend money on as long as you're doing it intentionally. But that is, I think, what you're saying. There's a kernel of truth there, and that's when it comes to, quote unquote, conspicuous consumption, and there's no additional value being provided by this product. It's not like you can put your finger on it and say, oh, well, this has a lifetime warranty. I'm willing to pay a little bit more for that. Or, Oh, this is made with full-grain leather as opposed to plastic or something. It's like, okay, there are actual physical attributes associated with that. But beyond that, you get to a certain point. And it's signaling. And it's signaling. You're buying it for the name. You're buying it because it's the latest, greatest, hottest thing. You mentioned Stanley water cups or whatever. Even though they fall over and leak everywhere, they're actually terrible cups, but they come in cute colors and everyone's posting them.

[00:51:58]

That's the slippery slope when it comes to luxury spending, spending in ways that doesn't necessarily lead to additional utility.

[00:52:06]

Yeah, there's a line from fight club. We're buying things to impress people that we don't even like. I think that is a sad but true reality of human existence is that oftentimes we are creatures that signal things to other people. And it's okay. You want to signal something. It's like, Hey, guess what? I brush my teeth every day. That's a nice thing to signal to people. They actually maybe might want to have a conversation with you then. But then there are other ways in which we're signaling signaling, and we're doing a distinct harm to ourselves financially in the process of that signaling. And so that's where coming back to that why, it's so crucial. What is it that you want? What is it that you want? Because I guarantee you when you dial it back at the end of the day, there are ways that you wish your life was different. Going back to my family, my mom didn't want to have to work. That would have been her end all, be all goal is to not have to work and be home with the kids more. I was a little haleian, so I don't know why that's what she wanted, but that was what she wanted, right?

[00:52:55]

But it was hard to achieve because of the spending habits they had in place and because they didn't have extra income coming from my dad having a more baller job or something like that. But you can figure out how to actually get to the place you want to go. Everything, though, in this life involves trade offs. And so for my mom to be able to stay home. It would have meant reducing spending, and my dad probably getting a different job. It would have meant those things. But you have to come to grips with those things. What is it that you really want? And do you actually want the fancy designer stuff? Or do you want more time, optionality? Do you want more control over your days? Do you want to go work in an industry, maybe that you even... Pays you less. For some people, that's the thing. It's like, I'm working in this high 200K job. My goodness, I'd be so much happier if I went over to work here. But my lifestyle is so expensive that I can't afford to take a pay cut right now. What is it that you actually want, though?

[00:53:43]

That's what you really have to wrestle with.

[00:53:45]

Totally. My advice to my listeners out there is, how can you build your confidence aside from buying things? Is it acquiring new skills? Is it building your community to your point? Is it giving back? How do you build your confidence aside from buying really of expensive things? Okay, let's talk about money sucks. What are some of the common money sucks that you feel people are encountering that they don't even realize how big of a money suck this is?

[00:54:11]

Well, we already talked vehicles, one, right? We talked about the cars. Well, you touched on subscriptions because what's so great about technology is that it allows us to do some amazing things, things that we never thought was possible. But when that technology is then used against us or those techniques or a sales model is used in such a that it separates us from our money, I think that's when something that seems really small can just compound and become this incredibly large amount of money over time. And so in that way, automatic withdrawals from your paycheck to go to your 401k. I love that. You You set it, you forget it, maybe you revisit it once a year. Let's take that from 7% to 8% of my pay. Oh, next year. Oh, let's take it from 8% to 9%. You only think about it once. I love that. But that same methodology is being used against us when it comes to subscriptions. And so as Netflix or Amazon says, Oh, by the way, if you don't want ads anymore, it's going to cost you $2 more. And you're like, Oh.

[00:55:07]

$2.99..

[00:55:08]

It goes up, Oh, just a little bit. It's not that much money, but every single month. And as it builds over time, I think you can just take that entire way of spending and apply it to a lot of different things in life. We certainly do lose a lot more money to subscriptions than we think.

[00:55:23]

I think debt is a money suck. And not all debt is created equal. If you've got 3% mortgage debt, more power to you. I wouldn't be paying enough for a living.

[00:55:31]

Hang on to that thing for the rest of your life.

[00:55:33]

I'm not paying off my mortgage debt anytime soon. But most other kinds of debt are working against you. It's compounding returns, but in the opposite direction. If you think that that $3,000 credit card debt, it's no big deal. The average credit card balance, I think in the United States, is over $6,000 now. It is a big deal, especially in today's interest rate environment where the average interest rate on a credit card is nearly 23%. That debt, taking it more seriously, Creating, whether you prefer the debt snowball, the debt avalanche method, there are different ways to attack that debt. But coming up with a timeline for how quickly you can pay it off so that you can be rid of the car loan, never have one again, so that you can pay off your credit card debt. The student loan debt, granted, the Save Plan is coming into existence. It's going to lower your payments dramatically and make it easier to receive forgiveness, which is great. But how can you get rid of those debts sooner rather than later? Because then that allows you more of the flexibility, more freedom to save and invest more of your money.

[00:56:28]

We'll be right back after a quick break Take from our sponsors. Young in profitors, we are all making money. But is your money hustling for you? Meaning, are you investing? Putting your savings in the bank is just doing you a total disservice. You got to beat in I've been investing heavily for years. I've got an eTrade account, I've got a Robin hood account, and it used to be such a pain to manage all of my accounts. I'd hop from platform to platform. I'd always forget my Fidelity password, and then I have to reset my password. I knew that I get to change because I need to keep track of all my stuff. Everything got better once I started using Yahoo Finance, the sponsor of today's episode. You can securely link up all of your investment accounts in Yahoo Finance for one unified view of your wealth. They've got stock analyst ratings. They have independent research. I can customize charts and choose what metrics I want to display for all my stocks so I can make the best decisions. I can even dig into financial statements and balance sheets of the companies that I'm curious about.

[00:57:31]

Whether you're a seasoned investor or looking for that extra guidance, Yahoo Finance gives you all the tools and data you need in one place. For comprehensive financial news and analysis, visit the brand behind every great investor, Yahoo Finance, yahofinance. Com, the number one financial destination, yahoofinance. Com. That's yahoofinance. Com. Young in profitors, I've been a full-time entrepreneur for about four years now, and I I finally crack the code on hiring. I look for character, attitude, and reliability. But it takes so much time to make sure a candidate has these qualities on top of their core skills in the job description. And that's why I leave it to Indeed to do all the heavy lifting for me. Indeed is the most powerful hiring platform out there, and I can attract, interview, and hire all in one place. With YAP Media growing so fast, I've got so much on my plate. I'm so grateful that I don't have to go back to the days where I was spending hours on all these other different inefficient job sites because now I could just use Indeed. They've got everything I need. According to US Indeed data, the moment Indeed sponsors a job, over 80% of employers get candidates whose resumes are a perfect match for the position.

[00:58:50]

One of my favorite things about Indeed is that you only have to pay for applications that meet your requirements. No other job site will give you more mileage out of your money. According to Talent Nest 2019, Indeed delivers four times more hires than all other job sites combined. Join the more than 3 million businesses worldwide who count on Indeed to hire their next superstar. Start hiring now with a $75 sponsored job credit to upgrade your job post at indeed. Com/profiting. Offer is good for a limited time. I'm speaking to all you small and medium-sized business owners out there who listen to the show. This is basically free money. You can get a $75 sponsored job credit to upgrade your job post at indeed. Com/profiting. Claim your $75 sponsored job credit now at indeed. Com/profiting. Again, that's indeed. Com/profiting and support the show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed. Com/profiting. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. Yeah, fam, I did a big thing recently. I rolled out benefits to my US employees. They now get health care and 401(k)s. And Maybe this doesn't sound like a big deal to you, but it was surely a big deal to me because benefits were like the boogie man to me.

[01:00:07]

I thought for sure we couldn't afford it. I thought that it was going to be so complicated, so hard to set up, lots of risk involved. And in fact, so many of my star employees have left in the past, citing benefits as the only reason why. And here I was thinking that we couldn't afford benefits when it's literally not that expensive at all and you actually split the cost between the employee and the employer. I had no idea. I found out on JustWorks. Justworks has been a total lifesaver for me. We were using two other platforms for payroll, one for domestic in US, one for international. We had our HR guidelines and things like that, employee handbook on another site, and everything was just everywhere. Now, everything's consolidated with JustWorks, a tried and tested employee management platform. You get automated payments, tax calculations, and withholdings with expert support anytime you need it. And on top of that, there's no hidden fees. You can leave all the boring stuff to JustWorks and just get to business. And with automatic time tracking, it has made managing my international hires a little bit more soothing for my soul that I know that they're actually working and they're tracking their time.

[01:01:25]

I mean, it's really hard to manage remote employees. It's easy to get started right away. All you need is 30 minutes. You don't even have to be in front of your computer. You can just get started right on your phone. Take advantage of this limited time offer. Start your free month now at justworks. Com/profiting. Let JustWorks run your payroll so you don't have to. Start your free month now at justworks. Com/profiting. I want to talk about credit scores really quick. I logged on to my app the other day and my credit score went down and I've been paying my bills. And I'm like, what's going on? And then I think it's because I've been opening up cards and not using them because everybody is like, open up this card, open up this card, and I haven't been using them. And it actually has been negatively impacting my credit score and I didn't know that. So how can we improve our credit scores quickly asking for a friend.

[01:02:20]

It's like, not for me personally, but I got this friend who likes Balenciaga or used to, perhaps. Well, I'll say before we launch into the details, just broadly speaking, when it comes to credit scores, the way they're reported and the way the bureaus in particular handle our information and how poorly they do it, especially when I think a quarter of all reports have errors on there, it sucks. It sucks that that's how it is because they're not responsive. They consistently lose our data. They have data breaches, and there's millions of Social Security numbers out there floating around.

[01:02:56]

And then you file a dispute because there are inaccuracies, and they say, What are you talking about?

[01:02:59]

And Nothing happens. That's your problem.

[01:03:00]

Yeah.

[01:03:01]

It's an unfortunate game that we have to play. I hate that we have to play that game, and I hope that there are new systems that come into play. But that being said, what you said is true. When you open up a new card, again, we're not against credit cards because we think that there are ways that you can use them responsibly and where you can maximize the rewards that you're receiving. But you are going to see a small ding every time you open a card. Now, over the long haul, you will see your score go up because what you've done is you've expanded the amount of credit that's available to you. The banks say, Oh, we just offered her $19,500 in additional credit, and she's only putting like a thousand on there. That seems like a really prudent nuanced approach to using debt. The way the algorithms work, they reward you for that. That's something to keep in mind is that in the short term, yes, if you are applying for a mortgage or any loan right now, you don't want to upset the apple cart. You don't want to disturb the dust. I don't know, I'm picturing dust in the air for some reason.

[01:03:59]

You You're not going to let everything lie as is. But if you're talking about over months, over the course, it's like, Oh, six, eight, nine months from now. Oh, yeah, go ahead. You can open an additional account. Expand the amount of credit that's available to you. And by keeping your credit utilization rate low, that boosts your credit score.

[01:04:18]

And I just want to encourage you, Holla, don't open three credit cards at the same time, right? Because you're going to miss out on all of the potential sign-up bonuses that you could get. And those can be really powerful towards... It can be 75,000 rewards points or something like that, which if it's a hotel card, that could be four free hotel night stays, or it could be three free flights with an airline card. Keep track of that stuff. Try to stay organized because you don't want to miss out on the bonus that that card offers and some of the sweet rewards that you can get by using them. I think sometimes simplification is better for people. If you go to the Points guy website, it's all about having 32 credit cards or something like that and throw your bill fold and it just keeps dropping. A lot of people, it's just overwhelming. It's too much. They can't handle that system. I think something like a A three or four credit card system can work really well for most people. Getting the rewards, making sure that they know what credit cards they have, making sure they're paying that thing off on time and in full, and not overdoing it, trying to optimize the system to the fullest.

[01:05:13]

I think some people are really into that, and it makes sense to them. They keep a spreadsheet and calendar reminders and all that stuff. But if you're not going to play that game all the way to its fullest, then just simplify it.

[01:05:25]

Yeah, then you guys are making me be like, This is a task for my assistant because I never keep track of all these things. Okay, so let's talk about paying yourself first. I know this is a big thing you guys talk about. I think it's important for my listeners to learn about it.

[01:05:38]

I think if you don't pay yourself first, there are going to be plenty of folks who step up to the plate, and they're going to want to get paid before you. So it comes down to you as the individual to decide proactively, this a nod back towards budgeting, where your money is going to go in speaking to subscriptions and auto-enrolling in 401k plans, that's why I think that's so powerful, because That's money that gets diverted off to future you. We're talking the old holla that's there on the fridge that she gets to enjoy years from now. And it's not just that money, it's what that has grown into. It's just putting all those little dollars to work. One of the ways my dad, I remember as a kid, that he explained compounding to me was just like, Hey, at a certain point, the money that you have invested, it's going to start working harder for you than you can work for yourself. He equated it almost as a roller It's like for most of your life, you're working, you're grinding, running up that hill, but then you get to the top, and all of a sudden, you can take your foot off the break a little bit.

[01:06:40]

And then, as long as you are invested wisely, that money is going to take off without you. We're fans of work. We think that work and the ability to contribute to society and the value that you can provide other people, it's incredible. It's a huge part of what gives life meaning, but also the optionality. Not having to work, choosing what work you want to pursue, I think that's important. That comes from being smart and paying yourself first, making sure that you're investing.

[01:07:04]

I don't know about you. I'm not the most disciplined person, so automation is what helps me overcome my laziness. So automating it, having that 401k set up on repeat, it's like you just are used to living on less. And once you get used to living on less, well, maybe every time you get a pay raise, you can only use half of that for yourself and put the rest into your 401k. If you get a 4% raise, well, increase your contribution to your 401k by 2% and increase your take on pay by 2%. But you just get used to living that lifestyle. And you'll be shocked after 15, 20, 25 years. You're like, you go, you log in your 401k. I mean, you're probably doing it once a year anyway or whatever. But you log in and you're just like, holy crap, how did it get to be like this? It was little dribs and drabs. It was the dollar cost averaging, Which is the fancy way for saying putting money in with every paycheck. It was that and it worked. For most people, it's like they just don't pay themselves first. They're not automating it.

[01:07:54]

Because of that, it takes discipline to stick money in. Because it takes discipline, they avoid it or they don't do it, and their laziness overcomes them. So let that automation be your friend in paying yourself first.

[01:08:04]

Okay, we're just about out of time. We're going to ask you guys one more question, and then we're going to end the interview with the questions I ask all of my guests at the end of the show. So my last question is about emergency savings. So again, I was reading this article about millennials, and it was really depressing. And they said, 69% of millennial households have less than $1,000 in emergency savings.

[01:08:25]

Yeah.

[01:08:25]

That's crazy to me.

[01:08:27]

That's not enough money.

[01:08:28]

So this is Tell them the number, Matt. Tell them the number.

[01:08:31]

We know the number. $2,467. You need to take your $1,000 emergency fund up to at least that because for a lot of folks, the vast majority of folks, that's going to get them past some of those hurdles that they're going to face on their journey. But then beyond that, you need to have a lot more than just that much money because that will get you through your car breaking down. That might pay for some medical expenses, perhaps, that pop up. But that doesn't account for getting laid off. That doesn't account for some of the larger headwinds that we face in life. Having a solid three to six months set aside is what we advocate for. Honestly, the more uncertain or precarious your financial situation is, you need to have even more than that. If you are an entrepreneur, and you've got five kids and you've got a bunch of crazy financial goals, well, I know you're going to want to channel a lot of your dollars towards those goals. But honestly, oh, and you're a single income household? Okay. So you're telling me all of this is riding on that single leg of the stool.

[01:09:33]

If that one leg gets swept out from under you, you're in the dirt, you're on your face. Having even beyond that, personally, I like to have something closer to nine plus months of living expenses set aside. But that's personal. That's because my wife and I, we are a single income household. It gives us just that peace of mind knowing that, Oh, we've got money in the bank, money without a name on it that we can fall back on where things to hit the fan.

[01:09:59]

I think people hear that number Or maybe, and especially if they're the person who has less than a thousand bucks saved and they're like, How am I going to get there? How am I going to get there? Please teach me that. There are a lot of ways that we can reduce our spending and not even really feel any pain in our lives. Lots of times when you reduce spending, it means not going out to meet. It means missing out on a hangout with friends, like going to the concert or whatever. But what about those recurring monthly bills? Look into those first. And your cell phone service, I pay $15 a month for my cell phone service. A lot of people are going to be like, What? How do you even pay for that? How does it cost that little? Well, These new cell phone providers like Mint Mobile or GoogleFi is another one. There's some Boost Mobile. They're way cheaper than a lot of the mainstream providers. But it's not like you're missing out on anything. It's the same network. They're just as good. Same network, right? Yeah. Or think about your insurance costs. I saved $500 a year just the other night calling my insurance company and saying, What do I need to do to reduce my insurance costs?

[01:10:52]

We talked about a couple of different things, one of which was them tracking my driving, one of which was me taking a $25 defensive driving course. I did it in no time and literally saved me a bunch of money. So there's a lot of ways. We write a lot about this on howToMoney. Com, but there's so many ways that you can save money in little dribs and draps here and there that's going to add up to monumental savings over time. You can save that, I guarantee, in six months if you read some of our stuff and then you just apply it.

[01:11:17]

Okay, I actually have one more question because I think it's super relevant for everybody. It's homeownership versus renting. I'm actually debating myself. I don't own a home yet. Should I go for it, own a home, or Or should I rent? I guess what are the pros and cons? Because a lot of people think that the American dream is owning a home and everything like this, but is that the right way we should be thinking?

[01:11:39]

Lots of people are going to make it sound like homeownership. There's a cult of homeownership in this country. And it's you buy a home because it's the best way to grow wealth. The truth is buying a home is not the best way to grow wealth. Buying a home, you do it for other reasons. And just like you would rent for other reasons, if you are constantly on the move, you're like, I don't know, I might live You said you didn't know where you're going to be in two years. You might be in San Francisco, you might be in Berlin. Who knows where you're going to be, right? So if that's the case and you're like, I'm all over the place. I have no idea if I want to put roots down here. Well, then there's no point in buying a home because the transaction costs involved in buying and selling. I would encourage people who don't know where they're going to be in the next couple of years to rent. And even if you know you're going to be in that place, run the numbers. The numbers are worse for home buyers versus renters than they've been in a long time in this country.

[01:12:29]

The discrepancy between the average mortgage payment because of higher home costs, higher interest rates, versus what rent is going for, the average rent, and rents are actually softening in much of the country. So if it's a purely financial decision, and the other thing that renters need to do, the way renters can come I had is if you're renting and paying a lot less than you would have been for that mortgage, investing the difference that you would have paid for that mortgage. That's how you're going to find yourself growing your wealth in a big way as a renter.

[01:12:54]

Which is also just the much easier way of doing it as well, because that's one of the things. It doesn't It wouldn't surprise me that you don't own a home because you are focused on so many other things in your life. You are focused on growing a business. You want to launch something new. And so there are a lot of responsibilities that come with owning a home. And so if it's a personal goal of yours, if you are in a neighborhood or there's a part of town, or maybe you've got family that lives there and you're like, I'm always going to be coming back here. Even if I go and live somewhere for two, three years, I'm going to end up back here. Okay, I could see that making sense. But you want to make sure... Three years, I think, is these days the minimum. But honestly, closer to five plus years is how long you need to be living somewhere before this transaction costs makes sense because you can't count on the market going up. It comes down to what you want your life to look like. There's just a lot more responsibility It's a responsibility when it comes to homeownership.

[01:13:47]

The reason it is typically the American dream is because going back to behavior and habits, you have to make your mortgage payment. Otherwise, the bank comes after you and they can foreclose in your house, there's nobody holding you to investing for your future in your retirement account. And so the reason that the vast majority of Americans have so much of their wealth tied up in their home is because they have to in order to continue to live there. There's nobody saying, Hey, in order to keep working here, you need to set aside 10% of your paycheck every month towards your retirement. Nobody's doing that. But if you can tell yourself, Well, that's what I'm going to do instead. You can mentally account for the fact that you're not building up equity. You don't have to fix whatever gets broken. You call the... What do they call them? Maintenance guy. The super. They're going to show up and take care of that for you.

[01:14:37]

It's correlation, not causation, right? So you see, Oh, the wealthiest household's own a home. Why is that? It's not because it's the best investment, typically, right? And although even though we've seen real estate prices skyrocket over the last few years, it doesn't mean that, Oh, what happened over the last three years is that trend is going to continue. In fact, predictions are that home prices are going to level out over the next few years. That's anybody's guess, right? That's market prediction stuff. But it's correlation, not causation. Really, the causation, what's going to make you the most money is lowering your monthly payment and investing as much as possible.

[01:15:06]

I love it. You guys gave awesome financial advice. This was a really fun interview. I'm really happy you guys came on the show. I'm going to end with two last questions They don't have to be related to the topic of the episode, so just answer them how you want. What is one actionable thing our young in profitors can do today to become more profitable tomorrow?

[01:15:26]

I would say do nothing. What I mean by that is to Just take 30 minutes of silence. Take some time, slow down, eliminate the distractions from your life, the distractions that keep you productive, that cause you to be efficient at your job, all the things that you get pats on the back for. And to think for a second, reflect on what it is that you want your life to look like. At various points in the podcast, we've talked about being intentional, spend your money proactively, but essentially what you're doing is designing your life. And that's happening whether you realize it or not. It's happening by default, the way that the world and culture and those around you, that they are steering you. Or you can decide how it is that you want your life to look like. And that, therefore, then has an impact on the work you do, the amount of money that you're saving and setting aside. The amount of money that you're spending is totally fine to spend a large portion of your money if that's what you want your life to look like. And that's what I think can ride the ship for a lot of folks that they're not doing.

[01:16:31]

Instead, we just live in a world of distractions. I think the more we can eliminate distractions from our life, it's going to allow us to live in a very intentional way.

[01:16:40]

I think that's great advice.

[01:16:42]

I'm going to say invest in yourself. This is something you talk about, Holly. Quite frequently. I think, especially if you're a numbers nerd, start to think about investing and average 10% return to the stock market year over year, and you funnel all your money in that direction. And that's not necessarily a problem that most people have, but I think it can become a problem as you become more interested in personal finance experiences, that maybe you're not thinking about your human capital and your potential to earn more. You're not thinking as deeply, as significantly about building your own business, maybe, if that's what you're interested in, or shifting careers and doing something completely different. And that often It doesn't cost money. My wife's going back. She's in grad school right now. We're paying for that in cash. It's expensive, but it's going to be worth it at the end of the day. I think it's really important to think about your human capital and funneling money into that direction, too. Don't see it as a detraction from your investments growing. It's actually the best thing you can do because in so many ways, it's going to increase your marketability.

[01:17:35]

It's going to increase your value on the market, and it's going to increase your abilities then maybe to be successful when you do start that business. You're going to be earning more, which means you can invest more later on, too.

[01:17:45]

I love that. Investing in yourself with skills sometimes doesn't even cost any money. It costs time. Okay, last question. This is about your secret to profiting in life. What is your secret to profiting in life? This is, again, beyond business money. Just generally, what is your secret to profiting in life?

[01:18:03]

I think for me, it's realizing that money is a tool. I think for so many people, money is the goal. If money is the goal, you're never going to be happy. But if you can think of money as a tool and you can reframe the way you view it, money is not this thing to grasp after, I got to have that, I got to have more of that. It becomes this treadmill that you never get off. And ultimately, you're never satisfied. So if you can see money as what it is, it is a tool to be able to help you achieve those things that you care about and that you in life, and you put it in its proper place. To me, that's the secret.

[01:18:34]

I'll say we had a guest on recently, and he said he thinks the number one life hack is marrying the right person or finding the right life partner. And so I I think that that is absolutely true, and I'll second that. But I think oftentimes, folks are hunting and searching for the right person because you hear that advice and you're thinking, Well, I haven't found that person yet.

[01:18:57]

I'll keep swiping left.

[01:18:59]

Yeah. We're so obsessed with making a mistake and not committing and working on yourself, honestly. So much of it, I think, is not finding the right person that's going to complement you and you're going to be this power couple and you're going to get ahead in life. But it's you becoming the person that you know that you're capable of being and what you're able to bring to the table, as opposed to more of a consumption mindset. Let me go out there and find the best thing that's out there for me. It's more about becoming that person that you know you're of, I think.

[01:19:31]

I love that. So not trying to fill a hole that you have, be complete, and then you'll be the right partner for somebody. So it makes a lot of sense. I know you guys have the How to Money podcast. Everybody can find you there. Where do you want to point people to? Where can everybody find you and learn more about what you guys do?

[01:19:47]

The other big place is howtomoney. Com. We write articles there all the time. So the podcast is three times a week, and then the website is there just to serve people. If you're like, How do I do a backdoor Roth IRA, like a contribution, that stuff. We've got that there. And the How to Money newsletter comes out every Tuesday. You can sign up for that at howtomoney. Com/newsletter. It's encouraging and chock-full of helpful advice to keep you going on your money journey.

[01:20:08]

Amazing. Well, thank you guys so much for joining us on Young and Profiting podcast.

[01:20:13]

Thanks for inviting us, Ala. Thank you.

[01:20:18]

Well, I just had such a great time with Matt and Joel. That was really entertaining. What a great way to explore personal finance topics and how fun that they got to start a podcast where they can kick back and have a beer with their best friend while giving their listeners something to think about. Money, however, is not something that a lot of people feel comfortable talking about. It's a shame because we can learn a lot about money from listening to others, how to make it, how to save it, how to keep it. I know I learned a lot from talking with Matt and Joel. Here are a few things that I'm taking away from today's conversation. First, reframing your approach to your budget. People tend to look at budget as something that keeps you from living your life, but it can really be something that helps you do what you want in life. You just have to be a little bit mindful. If you love to eat out, that's great. But just know that you're probably going to pay four times more for that meal than you would have eating at home. I also love the 48-hour rule.

[01:21:14]

It's so simple but very effective. If you see something you want to buy online, but put it in the shopping cart for a couple of days and come back later, if it's not calling to you anymore, then it probably wasn't meant to be. Now, if you're like me and you just buy a lot, and let's say You did the 48-hour rule, you bought what you bought, and now you've got it at home and sitting in your closet for weeks and you haven't worn it. Pay attention to your return policies. A lot of places online now allow 60 days to return. Some still are 30 days, But a lot now with online shopping, it's 60 days. That's a lot of time. If you haven't worn your clothes in three to five weeks, your new clothes, return it. Don't take off the tags until you've worn it. If you haven't worn your item before the return date, return it. So give yourself a deadline. If I haven't worn this in four weeks, I'm returning it. If I haven't worn this in three weeks, I'm returning it. That's what I do now. I put all my new clothes in one section of my closet.

[01:22:12]

And if I haven't worn it in a certain amount of weeks, it gets returned. Even if I love the thing, even if it looks great on me, I return it because I know that the occasion is never going to come up and that this is just going to sit and rot in my closet until it's out of style. And I've wasted so much money on clothes doing that. So There's a tip for you. I hope you guys take it. The last thing that I took away was emergency savings. Americans are not saving enough for emergencies. We need to have a couple of thousand dollars in case something goes wrong. You never know when your car is going to break down, when some unexpected medical expense is going to crop up. Make sure you're saving for those emergencies. It will be a lifeline between jobs if you need it as well. Thanks for listening to this episode of Young and Profiting podcast. You, dear listeners, are the lifeline offline that makes this podcast possible. So if you listened, learned, and profited from this conversation today, please spread the love and share this episode with your friends and family.

[01:23:08]

Text a link to this episode to somebody who you think could benefit from it. And I bet that they thank you. It's a great way to network with people. And while you've got your phone handy, please take some time to thank me and everybody who works hard on the show by writing us a five-star Apple podcast review. If you go look on there, we've got thousands of reviews because we have amazing listening listeners like you who take the time to give us that social proof so that the next Young and Profiter that lands on my page feels motivated and inspired to tune in and give young in Profiting a try. Please write a review, give us that social proof. You can also find me on Instagram @Yapwithhala, and you can find all of our videos uploaded on YouTube. In fact, we're about to start an in-person podcast studio. I'm so excited for this. I can't wait. I feel like it's going to really take the podcast to the next level, especially on YouTube. Before we wrap, I always have to say thank you so much to my incredible Yapp production team. You guys are awesome.

[01:24:07]

Thank you for all that you do. You guys are best in class. I'm so thankful for all your hard work. I couldn't do this without you. This is your host, Halataha, AKA the podcast Princess, signing off..