In my conversation with Ina Garten, I talked about my grandma Dee Dee's insanely delicious peanut butter cookies. They're very sentimental to me because it's my grandma. I still have grandma Dee Dee's handwritten recipe on an old index card. To celebrate Mother's Day, we printed that exact card in grandma Dee Dee's own handwriting onto a soft cotton tea towel. This is not your average tea towel. You can bake the cookies from the recipe printed on the towel and then clean up with the same tea towel when you're done. It's a tea towel duble. It's part of our Wiser Than Me merch collection. To check it out, head to wiserthemeshop. Com.

Lemonada.

I made a friend back when my son, Henry, was in preschool. This wonderful woman named Birgit. Like, go get the beer. That used to make her laugh. She was originally from Austria. She had a fantastic accent and this rocking body and blonde hair and a big, genuine smile. And she had a way about her that when you were in her presence, it felt like anything was possible and that, well, everything was going to be okay, which, as you'll see, is a little ironic. As anyone who is a parent knows, when your children are preschoolers and kindergarteners, you must accompany them on their playdates. I guess there's some parents who don't feel like that, but I always went on playdates with my kids when they were little, which meant that I had to make conversation with the other kid's mom or dad for three hours. And this could be, and frankly, generally was excruciating. I mean, mind-numbingly dull. And this was the truth for me until I met Birgit. Playdates with Birgit were spectacular. And there were a lot of playdates because our younger son, Charlie, was obsessed with Birgit's younger son, Ben. It was true love, and he demanded playdate after playdate.

And this was after our older children, Henry and Zoe, had been preschooled playdate pals, too. So that's dozens and dozens of playdates, years of playdates, which was sublime for me, because after a playdate with Birgit, I always felt like I'd gotten a good break, like I had traveled to some wonderful country, and all aspects of life were catapulted into proper perspective. She was completely comfortable in her own skin. She seemed to be right there, right where she was. Do you know what I mean? Does that make sense? She wasn't looking to go anywhere or in a hurry to accomplish some goal. That's the opposite of me in a way. That's actually totally the opposite of me. And I just love that about her. Our relationship was easy and almost immediately intimate and unspeakably delightful. We'd go on long hikes and have deep conversations about family, philosophy, and nature, and spiritualism, and sex, and traveling, cooking, and chocolate, and of course, our children. So one day we took this particular hike up in Los Leonas Canyon here in Los Angeles, when all of a sudden our two youngest, Charlie and her Benny, disappeared, these two little three-year-old boys.

They'd been happily in tow, and now they were just gone. The two older kids, beautiful Zoe, which is what Charlie called her, by the way, as if that was her name, and our Henry, they didn't know where they had gone. So of course, we called for them and we yelled for them. We screamed for them, actually, and they didn't answer. It got really scary, really quickly. It was dusk, and the older kids were freaking out, and we were freaking out. This went on, I don't know, like 10 or 15, even maybe 20 minutes, just a very very long time, too long. We were just about to call the police when we heard giggling. These two little boys emerged onto the trail from behind a big rock because they'd been playing hide and seek, but they forgot to tell us that they were playing hide and seek. I had that terrible combination of profound relief and furious anger. I grabbed my Charlie and I gave him a swot on the butt, which is the one and only time I ever did that, FYI. Then I looked over and I saw Birgit pick Benny up in a most loving embrace, and he wrapped himself around her just like a tiny little monkey.

So of course, this makes me cry because Birgit, as you've probably guessed, isn't alive anymore. And as I say that, I just cannot believe that that's true. One time when I went to see her in the hospital, I went in and she was fighting just the most wicked disease. She was wearing one of those awful green hospital gowns, but she somehow made it look chic, for real. She was sitting on the floor wearing these awesome clunky army boots. I remember thinking, I got to get one of those hospital gowns. She looked so cool and beautiful. And we talked about what we were going to do when she got well. We were going to spend a whole month in Italy together, and we were We're going to go hiking and eating, and we were going to be laughing. She was just an extraordinary friend. Now, Birgit wasn't a politician or an actress or an executive type or whatever. She was just the best possible person. She had this open-hearted, tender way of participating in life. And that's the thing I was talking about. She made you feel like anything was possible, which I know sounds crazy, but that's what it was like with her.

Yeah, let's go to Italy and hike for a month, and I'm going to learn how to sculpt. Why shouldn't I learn how to sculpt? Some people have the power to make us feel like that. Oftentimes, they're artists, right? They make us look at the familiar in a brand new way. Things get clear. After you're with them, you find yourself saying to yourself, Oh, I'm going to look at all the things I have on my bookshelf, and I'm going to think about what each little bit and bob means to me. You think, Wow, I never saw that before. And that's Birgit, you know? She didn't paint or sing. Living, living. That was her art. And Now she's gone, which is terribly sad. It's the flip side of her joy coin because she gave us so much joy. Yeah, so you have to look for those people in the world, the anything is possible people, the people who make living life into an art. Today, we're talking to Patti Smith. Hi, I'm Julia Louis-Dreyfus, and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. Our guest today is...

How should I put this? She's one of the greatest figures in rock and roll history. But musician isn't the right way to introduce her because she defies categorization. Artist, poet, writer, president of punk. Let's just say worker, because that's how she has described herself. She was at the forefront of the 1970s New York punk rock scene, putting her words over the sounds of a great band for her smash debut album, Horses, which, if you haven't listened to it lately, go back and play it today. It'll really surprise you because, yeah, it's fantastic punk, but it's also so musical and so thoughtfully written and well played. With that record, she totally redefined what a female rock star could be, inspiring that whole first wave of female punk artists in every wave since. And then, at the peak of rock and roll fame, she stepped away from the spotlight and moved to Detroit with her husband, the lead guitarist from MC5, Fred Sonic Smith, to raise a family together. Sixteen years later, she burst back into the music world and started performing again. She hasn't missed a beat since. She's a Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Inductee.

She's one of Rolling Stone magazine's 100 Greatest Artists of All Time, but she's also won the National Book Award for Just Kids, the memoir of her relationship with photographer and artist, Robert Mapplethorpe.

We froze. I think Robert visited us I'm frozen? Fuck.

God fucking damn it.

Hey, Patty, we're here. We're just figuring it out. We'll be right there. I think it was the compliment gods. They were saying I was getting too many compliments.

Patty, how hilarious is this? I mean, I'm right in the middle of your big old introduction and my Zoom freezes. Oh, my God. Okay, I think everything's fixed now. I'm so sorry about that. When did this happen? When did I freeze, Patty?

At Maplethorpe. You were saying at Robert Maplethorpe and just at the word Maplethorpe.

Okay, fine. So I'll start over there at that sentence. Take two. She's also won the National Book Award for Just Kids, the memoir of her relationship with photographer and artist, Robert Maplethorpe. But even that book is hard to categorize because it's so much more than a memoir. It's a love story. It's a poem. It doesn't matter what the medium she just creates, wildly with abandon and independence. If her pal Bob Dylan is the first poet of folk, she's the first poet of punk. She's collaborated with everybody, from Lou Reid and John Kael to Bruce Springsteen, and she does the best cover of The Who's My Generation ever. And she's still doing it all, writing, touring, and being Patti Smith, a woman who is so much wiser than me. Hi, Patti Smith.

Hi, Julia. I'm not I'm also sure I'm wiser, but- Oh, I know you are. But thank you very much. And yes, I do like to think of myself as a worker. That's how I define myself, but also a mother. Because they're the two things that I do every single day. I just can't escape either one of them happily. Yes. The idea of working and being there for my children who are quite grown.

Yes. And I'm in the same category as you. I'm a worker, and I'm also a mother of two grown children, two young men who I call my boys. Hey, listen, are you comfortable if I ask your real age?

Seventy 77.

77?

I've never had a fake age. I've never claimed to be any age that I am, but I turned 77 on December 30th.

And how old do you feel, Patty?

Well, my other age is about 9 to 11, which is really the way that I am in my head. I've always been youthful, but as I get older, we have more challenges, obviously. Some of them are physical, all kinds of challenges. So I do feel in step with my age. But the other part of me, I'm always 9, 10, 11 with my dog on my bicycle in my head.

I sense it. I mean, you are obviously a free spirit in heart and soul. I mean, that just pours out of you. That's obvious. Are there any practices that hold particular significance for you now that you're 77?

I'm careful with my food. I eat healthy, take walks, drink a lot of water. I make sure I do my work every day. I'm a bit of a sedentary person. I like to sit and write and read and daydream, so I make myself take walks. But my daily practice is that I write every morning, do a little stretching and exercise that I stay in touch with my inner life as well as my outer life. I'm not a gym person. I'm not a yoga person, but I make I make up little, even if they're pretend ballet or pretend anything, I make sure that I'm always using my body and staying in contact with it and stay in contact with my imagination.

How do you stay in contact with your imagination? What is the practice? I mean, I think you're just built that way, but is there something specific?

Well, I try to. Our world is so troubled, and And there's so much information, so many things to be concerned about, whether it's the environment or war or whatever it is that concerns us. And sometimes I can feel it permeating my consciousness more and more. So I try to burst through that and invent stories or read books or look at a piece of art and see where it takes me. Just keep challenging myself to think other thoughts. We have to be prudent. We have to be aware of our world, but we also have to have joy. Some people might call it imagination. Some might call it sense of humor. Whatever it is that gives us a sense of feeling our creative spirit.

Yeah. It gives you a sense of hope, right?

Yeah. Yes. We have to feel that every day, no matter how bad things are. We have to feel that. And we're both mothers. We feel hope not only for ourselves, but for our children. We wouldn't want our kids to think we had no hope.

Oh, my God.

What message would that be sending them?

Right. It's funny because I saw that you said, I don't remember where I've gone down the Patti Smith rabbit hole for the last week.

Oh, poor you.

No, lucky me. Lucky me, please. Lucky me. At one point, you were talking about what you stand for, and you stand for children. And that took my breath away, Patty. That was so beautiful. And of course, it's pure and it is true, right? That's What do you stand for.

People get mad sometimes when you say things like that, if you say, I'm for peace or I'm for love. But there's a reason we say those things because they are the highest things that we can say. And when people ask me, What side are you on? Or who do you stand for? Or what country? What government? And I think that, as you said, I'm for children. I don't care where the children come from, what they need, who their parents are, what their religion is. I'm for children and taking care of them, making sure they're safe, that they have food to eat, that they have education, that they feel a sense of well-being, that they feel love. It's actually It's not that much different than Mother Teresa. I'm not comparing. I'm saying her thought. People say, Well, why do you bother with these sick and dying children? Why do you bother? And she said, Because every being should feel love, and that's our responsibility. Sorry, I went on a little... No, it's fine. I went on my own rabbit hole there.

Yeah, your own little private Pattysmith rabbit hole. But guess what? I love No, no. This is what I'm so interested in exploring with you. I think if you talk about the lens of looking at any of the issues today, which are plentiful, of course, unfortunately, and looking at these issues through the lens of children, I think there's a clarity that comes through as a result.

Yes, absolutely.

So another thing that struck me about you is that... Well, are you a superstitious person?

I don't think I'm classically superstitious, but I have a lot of quirks. I thank everything. I live alone. I mean, I spend a lot of time with my daughter and some friends, but I do live alone. And I fall back into my nine-year-old habits, and that's thanking everything. I'll brush my teeth and I thank my toothbrush. I don't know if I should be saying this, but if I have a really good poop, I thank my system. I'll thank the poop. I will thank anything. Or if I'm eating I'm not a vegetarian. So if I'm eating a fish, I first thank the fish for its life, or I'll thank for vegetables for growing for me. I don't know if that falls in the realm of superstition, but it's some thing that I've done all my life. And as I get older, I do it more.

Well, I think we should all take a page from that. I mean, you're really deeply expressing gratitude.

Well, simplistic. It's like down to earth gratitude.

Yeah, right. It's down to Earth.

I'll thank my socks for keeping my feet warm.

What about talismans? What about objects? I know you're not a materialistic person, but I know that you put value on certain objects.

I can't claim to be non-materialistic because I have so many books, and I love all of my books. Certain of my books are talismans, my childhood books that I still have. But my most precious thing, which I can't wear anymore because my fingers changed, is my wedding ring, which I always have.

Can I see?

Yeah, it's just a plain little gold wedding. It's just a classic little wedding ring. I always wear it, but I have things, usually things people give me, like a monk and a Sissy gave me a little Saint Francis cross. It could be... I have a lot of Robert's things. Yeah. I am very talismatic, but they shift. And when I travel, I always take a couple of things and put in a little bag to be with me. But it could be something precious. But for instance, here's one. It's Robert's Pencil Sharpenter.

Oh, cool.

But it's a brass pencil sharpener, and we used to use it. It was his, but we used it so many times when we were drawing. And so I just have it here. It's a work tool. So other things could be my father's golf ball. It could be anything. Well, I have my children's baby teeth.

Okay. That is incredible. You just said that.

I was the tooth fairy.

Yes. Guess what? So was I. I have all of their teeth. And I often think, what can I do with these little tiny, beautiful teeth? Put them on a necklace or something like that.

Well, you can take them with you.

Yeah, I could take them with me.

If I'm buried with anything with pockets, I want the teeth in the pockets.

What a great idea. Oh, I'm going to do that, Patty. When I kick the bucket, I'm going with the kid's teeth.

Okay.

I wanted to show you a couple of talismans of mine because, first of all, this... I don't know if you can hear that.

Oh, yeah. See that? Oh, yeah. It's That's beautiful.

That's my- It's beautiful. Wedding Band.

We froze. Can you still hear me? We hear you.

We're here.

Okay, one second.

Hi, Julia What do you hear? Okay, let me explain what's going on. Patty sees me frozen on her screen, but I don't know it. I just keep going on about orange blossoms and bullshit. But now here is when I realize what's happening. The smell of orange blossom, to me, oh, no, not again. Oh, my God. I'm here. Can you hear me? Yes. What the fuck is happening with this situation?

Don't worry. No, it's okay. I'm not pressed for time. You always have me. This is my favorite part, actually.

That's so funny because I was telling you about my wedding ring, and then you didn't say anything, and I thought you were bored of my story.

No, no, because you froze. No, it's beautiful.

Oh, for fuck's sakes. Okay, so here, I'm going to show you now. This is my... I mean, seriously, we're going to be here to midnight. But here, this is my wedding band, and you see it has orange blossoms. It's antique. It's beautiful.

Thank you.

I love It's beautiful. And when I first went to California, when I was 14 years old, I smelled orange blossoms for the first time, and I was so overcome. I can't even really articulate how much that smell means to me. And then I met this boy from California. So to have a wedding band with orange blossoms around it, I mean, the meaning is intense for me. So talk about talismans. That's so nice. Yeah, it's so nice, right?

No, I mean, really, A talisman is so personal. It can be a penny or it could be something extremely precious. You could have a ruby in your pocket. But whatever it is, one invests it with a certain amount of- Significance. Significance, magic, poetry.

Right. Yeah, that's nice. It's time for a quick break, but don't worry, there's more with Patti Smith and Just a bit. Maker SMART Bourbon is a sponsor on this season of Wiser Than Me, and MAKER SMART is offering you a way to honor the special women in your life in an easy and meaningful way. The co founder of Maker's Mark, Margie Samuels, left her own mark on the brand. She was the designer behind the red wax dip, the label and even the name. So it's only natural that Maker's Mark partnered with talented artist, Gail Kabaker, to hand paint a beautiful label which you can personalize with the name of a wise woman you know, someone who makes an impact on you or in their community. Maybe that's your mom, grandma, sister, friend, or a coworker. It's a great way to let them know they're appreciated every single time they pour a glass. Maker's Mark is also honoring all these women by donating to Vital Voices, a change catalyst organization. They invest in women leaders who are taking on the world's greatest challenges, from gender-based violence to the climate crisis, economic inequities, and more. I'm lucky enough on Wiser Than Me to talk to extraordinary women who I have a lot to learn from, and I know you have extraordinary women in your life, too.

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Well, it was so funny. I mean, I just had long black hair. It was just really straight. I mean, I love Joan Bayes. Me, too. But I got tired of people just saying, Are you a folk singer? Because they weren't saying in a nice way. They were more insulting me. I was with Sometimes Robert would take me to places because I was a hick. I came from South Jersey. I was a little socially inept. I had a strong sense of myself, but I didn't really have a total grasp on our culture yet. But I got so sick of it, and I just thought, screw them. I looked at pictures of Keith Richards, and I just got my scissors and just cut it. Actually, it looked awesome.

I thought it looked great. Yes.

And then I just went. We used to go to Max's, Kansas City at night, and this was 1970. And the same people that made fun of me all the time or would roll their eyes when Robert would bring me anywhere, they acted like... I mean, it was like, I just couldn't believe all the attention I got. And all of a sudden, I became so cool. And I was like, instead of feeling gratitude, though, I thought, all that for for a haircut. It's like that's all it takes is a haircut. I was the same person. Of course. But I did like it. I did like my haircut. And I think really in the end, because I was so boyish-looking, I didn't wear makeup and it's very slim. And with this chopped up hair, I had more probably of an androgynous look and that people found appealing at that period, 1970.

Well, you created an iconic look for yourself, almost without- By mistake. By mistake. And I know what you mean about... I mean, there's a part of me that wants to say to those people who all of a sudden have an about face about you. You want to say, go fuck yourself. Yeah, exactly. But do you still identify with your hair? Is that a big part of your... I mean, your braids are divine. I love them.

At this point, I just wear a uniform, what's comfortable. I just braid my hair, usually. It took me a long time to get used to having light-colored hair. I mean, I had dark hair my whole life. I didn't start going gray till I was in my late 50s, 60 years old. And for a while, I colored it or I put different highlights in it. And then I thought, I just decided to just let it be itself. And I'm not so... I have a definite style. For sure. And I like... But I'm not... I had a very youthful appearance for a long time. And in the last couple of years, I can see my aging process. So I thought, okay, as long as I do good work, as long as I can do good work and can be reasonably pleased my appearance, that's fine with me. I'm not so deeply connected with that anymore.

By the way, speaking of your hair, I saw that on your mom's birthday, you trim your hair, right? Do you still do that on your mother's birthday?

Actually, I haven't done that in a long time. I trim my hair also as an act of independence. My mother cut my hair until I was 14 years old, the worst haircutter. I mean, she just take a pair of shears and chop and then put curlers in it and try to make it look better.

Oh, God.

My school pictures are some of the worst pictures of a child you could ever see. But I love the idea, at least for a period of time, that you honored your mom by trimming your hair on her birthday.

What do you think your kids would do to honor are you? What would they do, do you think?

Oh, I have no idea. But I honor my mother every day. Every time I drink a cup of coffee, I honor her, her and my father. They were big coffee drinkers. And every time I drink my coffee, they pass through my mind. I didn't have always the greatest relationship with my mother. We had our problems. But the older I get, the more I admire her. And The more I would do anything just to have one more cup of coffee with her. It would just be just sit there and talk and have a cup of coffee together.

What did you learn from her as a mom that you carried forward in your mothering?

My mother worked as a waitress her whole life. She had four kids. My father worked a night shift. She worked as a waitress, and they had a lot economic strife, yet she was able to keep a sense of optimism, creativity. She was completely open-minded. She had no prejudices. Her only rule when you came into our house was that you had to be respectful and kind to one another. I think, if anything, I just realized how hard she worked. How did she do it? I I raised kids. My husband and I raised our kids ourselves. I didn't have a nanny. I didn't have babysitter's. I had two kids, but my mother had four, and she was working. And when I was doing laundry For us, I thought, of all the laundry she had to do, she took in other people's ironing when I think about it. And she was so... She never complained about it. She was always upbeat, singing songs from the '40s, and She was just happy that World War II was over. She just had such a great spirit. She always said, if we complained because we thought we were having difficulties or I didn't have nice shoes to wear or something.

And she always quoted, I don't know where the quote comes, but she would say, I wept because I had no shoes, and then I saw a man who had no feet. She said that again. But throughout our life, she would say that whenever we complained, if we didn't like our food, she would talk about the people who... But not in a cliché way, but a real comprehension of the strife of others. But all of these things make me constantly think about other people. And I know I got that from my mother.

Yeah. Well, and you say thank you a lot, don't you? I mean, that has to be... Yeah, but I mean, It has to be related to your mom, at least, based on what you're telling me.

I think it's beautiful. Well, thanking my toothbrush, I think, came from myself because that when my mother would say, Patricia, you're going too far.

Yeah, I was going to say, well, that's you taking it to the next level. But that's okay. You put your own spin on it.

Yeah, exactly.

You left home at a young age, and when you moved to New York and that whole extraordinary adventure journey began. Did you ever reach back to your folks asking for advice, checking in, or were you very separate from them during that time?

I was very close with my family, and I always kept in touch with them, even if I was sending them postcards from New York to New Jersey. But I didn't tell them about any hardships or difficulties I was having. They had their own, and I just thought it was my duty to figure things out myself. I really came to New York to get a job because there wasn't any work in South Jersey. And when I finally got a good job at a bookstore, and then I met Robert. I mean, my life was magical. I mean, we had our problems, and we didn't have much money, but it was a very magical time for me because I was from a very rural area and without really anything cultural happening. There was a square dance hall across the street, but it wasn't a cultural hub. You had to go to Philadelphia or Camden.

I love that story of your dad taking you to Philadelphia, and you saw the Picassos? Art.

I saw art for the first time in person. Yes. Yes. Especially the Picassos. But I loved it. I loved all the energy. I loved that people were walking on the streets at night. I loved everything about it. So I was quite happy.

Were your parents worried about you or were they cool or they didn't think about it too much?

My mother always worried. She would worry about us all the time, but they knew I was street smart. And then they were happy when I met Robert because I had a companion, someone who could look out for me. Although it was pretty much the other way around, I think.

Yes. Let's talk about your gorgeous book, Just Kids. What a work of art. What a work of art. I know that right before Robert died, you made the promise to him to write down your life, his life together. And that was in 1989. And then in 2010, you completed it. Is that right? Yes. So can you talk about how that span of time... I mean, I know a lot happened, obviously, in that span of time, but the journey of finding a way to tell it. And how did that happen, Patty? How did you find your voice It was very difficult because I mostly wrote poetry stories.

I wanted to write fiction, not non-fiction, but I had promised Robert, and he asked me to write Our Story. And I knew what our story was. I knew it backwards and forwards, but I wanted to present it in a way that would make him happy, that he'd be proud of. But Robert was not a reader, so I wanted to write something that would have a cinematic feel so that readers would like, that it would be poetic enough, that readers would be fulfilled, but also non readers could also enjoy as almost like a movie. But it took me a long time because I had never done anything like that, and I wanted it to be good or not at all. And then so many things happened. The loss of my husband and my brother and taking care of my children and having to reenter public life in order to make a living. And the book kept being shelved. But I sometimes could hear Robert going, Patty, where's our book? And I had a very good editor, and her and I just plowed through it. And I went through two publishers. I got dropped from Double Day because it took me so long.

And another publisher took it. I had one crisis after another. Sometimes I would go a year with without working on it. And I wrote so many outlines, and I wanted to get everything correct. I wanted people to have a sense of New York City, what it was like in the late '60s and early '70s. And I also wanted to represent everyone in the book well, even people I didn't like, because I didn't want the book to be a way to speak ill of people. I wanted to put them in cultural context. So I had to make certain that everything was as accurate as possible. I did have a lot of diaries which were really helpful.

That was my question, because there's a lot of detail. A lot, right?

Well, my mother used to, every year for my birthday, get me these little diaries where it only gives you a half a page per date. And so I found a couple of them. A lot of them got lost, but I found pivotal years at the Chelsea where every day it would say, Cut Robert's hair like a Rockabilly star. Cut my hair like Keith Richards. Met Janice Joplin. It wouldn't tell anything about her It would just say, Met Janice Joplin. And I would say, Are you serious? That's all you wrote. Full moon when my period was due. So I had almost a daily picture of our everyday life. Yeah. And I was really able... I have a very good memory for things like that. So I was able to reconstruct that period of time. And through the music we were listening to and the work that we both did, I was having a lot of difficulty finishing it, and I had some work to do in France. And Johnny Depp and Vanessa Paradee had a complex in the south of France, and they had a little chapel that he had renovated. They let me stay there and finish the book.

And Johnny was very encouraging. He would tap on the door, And then I'd open the door and there'd be a little tray of food.

Oh, my God.

And sometimes a little glass of very good wine or something. And never bothered me. And that's where I finished the book. And I'll never forget, when he was done the book, he knocked on my door and I opened. He stayed up all night long or whatever. And I said, How is it? And he goes, It's a fucking masterpiece. And I went, Oh, my gosh. That was my first review. And that froze you. Oh, my gosh. Poor us.

Rosen Zoom Emma again. Oh, my God. Can you believe this? This was driving me crazy. But nothing faces Patti Smith. Honestly, nothing. Oh, thank God.

I just wanted to sit there and just have you talk to Patti.

All right. All right. We're back. God damn it. What the fuck were we just talking about?

We were...

Who knows?

I was telling you about not Johnny He was my first reader.

Yes, which is a huge responsibility, but obviously, he was up to the task.

He was very encouraging, and he sent me on my way.

You know, there's something Speaking of encouraging artists, there's something about being in proximity to other artists and thinkers and so on that you were in the midst of when you were living at the Chelsea Hotel, and of course, those early in New York. Can you talk explicitly about the value of being close to people who challenge you and really lift you up?

I mean, I don't know if I can do it justice, but I was very fortunate because when I was at the Chelsea I mean, I was there privy to the minds and the advice of people like William Burrows and Alan Gainsberg, Bobby Neuwirth. I met a lot of musicians, Janice Joplin, of course, but a lot of different people that came in and out of the Chelsea. We were all living there. So even though I was a girl working in a bookstore, I was living in the same place as as they were for a week or two. It was my home. I, truthfully, to this day, don't know why these people, what they saw in me and why they gave me so much of their time. But But they did. I didn't take drugs at the time. I mean, I've never really taken drugs, smoked some pot. But even then, I wasn't smoking pot. I had a lot of clarity. I was a responsible person, but I was a fledgling artist. And a lot of people took me under their wing. And like William Burrows, he would sit and talk to me and talk to me about my imagination or shamanistic powers.

But also he would tell me what advice he would give me, for instance, Keep your name clean. If you have to make big decisions, especially about your work, one might be more lucrative, more exciting, but you have to make the decision that you can live with for the rest of your life and to do your best to keep your name clean. And I don't know really what to say, except I was so lucky. And I had my own sense of myself, and I was a bit arrogant, but I wasn't so arrogant that I failed to recognize that these people had a lot to teach me. And it was as I think I said in the book, but it's the best way I can say it, it was my university.

I mean, It's not. You got your master's, your PhD, you got the... For real, right?

And a couple of doctorates.

Yeah, exactly. And a couple of doctorates. I love this from the book when you talk about this exchange that you had with Sam Sheppard, who was also another very close friend of yours. And he said, You can't make a mistake when you improvise. And you said, what if I screw up the rhythm? And he said, you can't. It's like drumming. If you miss a beat, you create another. And you wrote, in this simple exchange, Sam taught me the secret of improvisation, one that I've accessed my whole life. That is so beautiful. And I believe that totally. It certainly applies to my own life with improvisation.

And in our practical life, everything that we do on stage, I make so many mistakes on stage or forget lyrics or all kinds of disasters. And I just take them in stride. You can't make a mistake. You just create a new beat. And also, if you're performing, if you stay in touch with the people, you can do anything. You can tell them, I'm having a weird moment here. Yeah, right. And people go, It's okay, Patty. It's okay. They'll wait for you. They'll send you energy as long as you take it in and give it back to them. You can transfigure anything. It's the transformation of waste. You can take something and create a new thing.

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Oh, I got a lot.

What the hell?

Oh, my gosh. I didn't really think when I left, it would be any big deal. I wasn't like Bob Dylan. I wasn't Metallica. I wasn't the Grateful Dead. I was just doing my part. And that's how I thought when I did my first record, I just wanted to lay some groundwork for future generations. I thought, Rock and roll was getting too glamorous. I thought it was getting too commercial. I was just trying to bring it down to strip it down to three cords in poetry. And then I was going to be on my way. So I wound up doing four records, but I never planned to be a rock star. I don't really have... I'm not a great singer. I had no training, no musical training. I said what I had to say. And then I felt, as I was performing, somewhat redundant. And I also felt, because in Europe, I was very popular. I thought the direction I'm going is possible fame and fortune, but I wasn't growing. I was becoming agitated, somewhat demanding, stressed. I wasn't writing. I felt that I wasn't evolving as a human being. But at the same time, I had really, after having some very interesting, beautiful relationships with other fellows, I found the person that I really loved and wanted to spend my life with.

And I didn't like being parted with him. And we decided he had been a rock and roll star from a young age to mutually leave the music business and live a quiet life and see where that took us. And so it was just time. It was time to see what I was made of. And it It wasn't easy, but I've never once had any regret about it. I never regreted a thing. I loved my husband, and I went into that life willingly. Yes. And it required a certain amount of sacrifice. But one thing I learned is sacrifice isn't bad. It's only bad if you resent the sacrifices you're making, which I didn't. And then having kids.

Yeah, how soon? How soon after you made that move did you start having your babies?

Well, I made the move in '79, and I had my son in '82 and my daughter in '87. And I was also getting older. I was 41 when I had my daughter. Those years, because I had to have new disciplines and I had to work with how much time I had to myself, became the years where I really became a writer. And in my whole life, that's what I wanted more than anything. It was of all my disciplines, being a writer is the thing I'm most proud of and the most in terms of myself. And I had to find my niche to write, wake up at 5:00 in the morning when the kids were sleeping, work from 5:00 to 8:00. Then they got up, got them ready for school, and then whatever rhythm my husband and I were in. But I found a way to develop my work and to study. People found it appalling that I did that, but I grew. I grew as a writer. I grew as a human being.

I find it appalling that people found it appalling.

You know how appalling? When my husband and I did a record, Dream of Life, together. Yes. And it got terrible. They really just skewered it. And there was a picture of me in the village voice with my hair and braids because I had my hair and braids on the album cover with Cal Utters. Basically, saying that I had... I mean, basically, they were... This is a newspaper paper that used to put me on the cover. Now I had turned into a female cow because I had- Oh, my God. So it was very... And also, after my husband died and I came back into public life because I needed work. And still, to this day, people will say to me, Well, in the '80s, you didn't do anything. And I said, In the '80s, I had two children. Two children. I washed a million diapers. I planted trees. I wrote every day. I evolved as a human being. I had spent a certain amount of time. It was only a certain amount of time, but I spent all that time with the love of my life. How can you say that I did nothing in the '80s?

Well, I really think that this is what you are describing as the unfortunate plight of being a woman because you're fucking damned if you do and damned if you don't, right? You could argue that the '80s and this period of time in which you developed this discipline to get up before the kids and do your writing and then raise two human beings with the love of your life might have been your most fruitful and productive time of your life.

So I think it's also, Julia, I'm sorry. I think that part of it is also this idea of media and people's headspace, where if you aren't In the public eye, you don't exist if you're an artist. If you aren't in the public eye, they say, I did nothing because it wasn't reported. They think that because I wasn't in the media, that I didn't exist or what I did didn't matter. I have pride in what I accomplished in those years.

As well, you should.

I have pride. I'm not a very good homemaker. I'm not very good at domestic tasks, but I was proud that I was able to do my best, to do whatever I could to be the best mother I knew how to be. And that's its own worth. That has its own worth.

That's not small potatoes. No, that's not nothing. Yeah, that's not nothing. I mean, I would argue that's the most important. I mean, at the end of the day, I would want to be the best mother I could be over anything else. You're such a fanciful and you're such an imaginative person. Were you able to meet your children in that place, in that place of pretend? I would think that that was something that would be a good meeting ground for you guys. Yeah?

Yes, we did. And then what I learned with my siblings, because I was the oldest, so I designed a lot of our play. And that's a territory I know well. But I also know that part of the territory when you have to let them go and have their imaginative plays with their friends and with each other. I have a beautiful relationship with my kids. They lost their father very young. They were six and twelve, and I've been their parent. And I'm really happy with the communication that the three of us have. And they're both creative. They're musicians. They're good, solid people, and I'm very happy with them.

Yeah. My kids are both creative, too. I have to say that it gives me enormous joy to see them.

We're frozen.

Hi, it's me again. Are you believing all these technical problems? I just keep freezing on the Zoom. This really, honestly, doesn't happen to us, usually. I felt so bad for Patty, but she took it completely in stride.

Okay, I'm just going to go to the bathroom. Great. Feel free to It's been a long time. Patty is going to the bathroom.

Oh, she is? I'm going to the bathroom, too.

Okay, good. I'll get this figured out. You're doing great. I'm so sorry. It's just exposed. Julian is going to run to the bathroom, too. Okay.

Okay, I'm back. Hi, Patty. Hi. All right. So what was I going to say? I was going to say, how did you help your children navigate the grief of losing their dad? I mean, that's a huge question, I realize. But if you can speak to it, or is it just too much?

Well, I can't answer it for them. I can only say that we kept him with us daily, and we still do. And my brother died a month later. So we had two their favorite uncle who was only 42, and my husband was 45. So we had the loss of both of them to navigate. And I think a lot of it was just keeping them present, just keeping them present and just continuing on. I'm a worker, so I worked. I tried my best to keep some certain things seamless. But it's actually such a difficult thing to talk about. Yeah, I understand. I can only say It's easier to simply say, and I think it's a good thing to do with all the people that we love, we go through a certain period that is almost mystically terrible. And then when we reenter life, we just make him part of everything. Exactly. We talk about him, not always like he's a saint, some funny stories or sad stories, or we wonder what he would think of. What would he think of social media? What would he think of lack of privacy? What would he think of Metallica having 1.4 million people in a concert in Russia?

What would he think of political change? But we just make them part of our conversation.

Yeah. I I think that I lost my sister and my dad in a very short period of time, and I agree with keeping them a part of you. It's like your relationship with them changes. You still have a relationship, right? But it's a new way of being with them.

Yes, absolutely.

I remember that you were talking about when you and your sister were with your brother after he had passed, you were with his body, and you started to laugh hysterically. I have to tell you something, it was uncanny reading that because the exact same thing happened to me with my sister. I was with my other sister and we were with my deceased sister's body, and we became hysterical laughing. Isn't that strange that we both had that same reaction? In a way?

Well, I think a lot of that comes from closeness and trust. I mean, I cherish that we did that because my brother Todi, Linda and I laugh so much as siblings. And sometimes if we got started, we'd laugh ourselves sick. Oh, you know that feeling. You can't stop. You can't stop. And my brother, especially, was the big laffer among us. And the The fact that my sister and I were able still to laugh like that without him physically. I mean, he couldn't laugh with us physically. But the fact that we could still do it even without him, made us both feel like he was within us and that we hadn't lost that ability. And I think that that's a wonderful thing. I found it such a joyful expression of our mutual love for him.

Oh, yes, without question. I think it's positively beautiful. I wanted to tell you that my dad, who passed away in 2016, and he was a businessman, but he was also a poet himself. And his stuff was published, and he was actually the head of the poetry Society of the East or whatever it's called. I Anyway. And he wrote a poem that we actually put on his tombstone. And I thought you might be interested to hear it. May I read it to you? Yes, yes, yes, yes. It's called Explanation. And it goes like this, God must mean for us to reason that the flower first in bloom, taught and shining, is not altered even in its dying season. God's the present ever missing till we meet it when we die. Life's the ambush of tomorrow and the sorrow of goodbye.

Wow. That's beautiful. The Ambush of Tomorrow. Is that the line?

Ambush. Life's the Ambush of Tomorrow.

Life's the Ambush. What a line. Ambush. I mean, I'm sorry to Pick a part. It's so beautiful. But to use the word ambush within that poem, that's a real poet. I mean, that's someone who really understands and can turn words at his will. It's like he got the clay of the word and turned that. It's beautiful.

I'm happy to send you his- Yes. Right when he died, he had never published a book of poems. He'd only had poems published, specific poems. And he put together a book of poetry that he entitled Letters Written But Not Sent. And it was for me and my sisters. Yeah, my mom and my stepmom. Anyway, it was very meaningful. I thought you would be interested in that since you're such a poet yourself. And I was going to ask you if you wouldn't mind either saying or singing the Memorial song that you... Because it's so beautiful that you sing for Robert.

Oh, for Robert.

For Robert. Only if you want to. If you don't want to, that's fine.

Oh, no, I can. That little song, When Robert died, I knew that I had to speak at his memorial, and my husband drove us to North Carolina. We used to get a little place and sit on the beach because I love the sea. And I walked up and down, and up and down and up and down that beach, trying to think of what to say. And this little song came into my head. I've never recorded it or anything. I just really wrote it for Robert. So it's called Memorial Song. And what I'll do is... Okay, I just need to get my other classes.

Sorry. No worries. Okay, so I have to stop again for just a second. Remember a few minutes ago when Patty said that she would take mistakes and transfigure them? Well, as you've heard, the internet has been freezing like crazy during our whole conversation, and it's about to freeze again right in the middle of Patty's beautiful song. But this is Patty Smith. It doesn't matter. In fact, it's great. Patty transfigures the moment. So right when Patty starts, I freeze on the I can still hear her perfectly, but she's looking at me just frozen on her screen, and she just keeps going. And well, anyway, just listen to what happens.

I haven't looked at it for a long time, but I'm going to sing it to you because it was written as a song. Robert had green eyes, very green eyes. And my dream was always, we didn't have any money when we were young, but my dream was to someday buy him a beautiful emerald ring because he loved, which I never did. But I wrote him this song instead. Little emerald bird wants to fly away. If I cup my hand, could I make him stay? Little emerald soul, little emerald eye, little emerald soul, must you say goodbye? All the things that we pursue, all that we dream, are composed as nature knew in a feather green. Little emerald bird, as you light afar, It is true, I heard, God is where you are. Little emerald soul, little emerald eye, little emerald bird, we must say goodbye.

That was so beautiful.

Oh, my gosh. I looked in your eyes at the... I don't know if you could tell.

Oh, Patty, I could hear you, but I was frozen on Zoom, and you just kept going.

I looked straight in your eyes at the end and really saw all of you, whatever What a beautiful person you are, really.

I think you are the most beautiful person. This has been an honor for me, totally and completely, to talk to you today and be with you. And God knows we glean tons of wisdom from this conversation.

And my favorite thing is you and your sister laughing just like my sister and I did, because that was mystically beautiful.

Yeah, mystically beautiful. Patty Smith, thank you so much for being with us today.

Thank you, Julia. I won't forget that last look I had of your face.

No, don't forget it. I'm blazing my frozen Zoom face in your brain. And many thanks for your patience. Oh, my God. I'm very grateful to you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, what an incredibly patient, kind and A wise woman that Patty Smith is. Wow. She really kept me calm during those dropouts. Okay, I got to get my mom on Zoom so I can tell her about it. I hope I don't freeze with her. Hi, mommy.

Oh, hi, honey.

Hi, hi. Hi, hi. So I'm going to hope that the Zoom doesn't go out while I'm talking to you because we had enormous technical difficulties while working with Patty. But because she's so kind, we were able to get through it.

Well, welcome to my world. When it works, it's a miracle. So I turned on the computer with a sinking heart.

Mommy, she Was talking about her mother, something her mother always used to say to her whenever they would complain. Her mom used to say, I cried because I had no shoes, and then I saw a man who had no feet. Did you not used to say that to us? Isn't that an expression that you have said, or am I crazy?

Well, not exactly. What my mother used to say was, When you get something, everybody else in the family can't.

No way.

Really good to go shopping. No way. Well, she was one of my girls. She was one of my girls. Grandma Mom made all her clothes.

Oh, my God. Honestly, that is honestly, that is the funniest thing I've ever heard.

Well, it's funny, but it did make me- No, I'm sorry, mommy.

That's an awful thing she said to you. Well, anyway, she was saying it affectionately, talking about her mother. We were talking about grief and lost because she's had, as most people her age have, but there was a period of time in her life where she lost her husband, her brother, and her best friend, Robert Maplethorpe, all within a very short period of time. I actually remember that you were the one who talked to me once when I think I had a friend whose mother had died, and you were telling me about talking about how losing a person, and it's not like the relationship ends. It's a new way of being with that person. It's a new relationship.

When my mother died, there was a neighbor There was a wonderful woman that was an older woman, and she lived a couple of blocks down from us, and she always walked by with her dog, and I talked to her, and she was about the age that my mother was. Then she knew that my mother died. She wrote me a note, and she said that she has noted that when she loses people, that they're very much with her. She said, The relationship changes, but you're very much alive within you. I've saved that letter always because it was something that nobody had ever said to me, because I think in my family, discussion was stricken about grief. We were to a funeral yesterday of somebody that both dad and I love so much. It was at the funeral that I felt his presence so much. I felt the joy that he had in being with us and that we had in being with him. It was just something that you felt. When they were playing one of the hymns, which was not a hymne that had any relation to any joining before, but I suddenly felt that joy that I would feel being with him.

So there it was.

He was with us.

Yeah.

That's a nice thing. That's comforting, isn't it?

It's very comforting.

I actually recited Daddy Will's poem, Explanation, that we put on his tombstone, which I think you're familiar with. Then she was kind enough to sing the song/poem that she wrote for Robert Maplethorpe when he died, and she sang it at his funeral, and she sang it for us, a cappella. It's called Memorial Song. It's beautiful. It was quite the experience to talk to her. There's nobody like her. I really enjoyed being with her.

She seems to be from another place altogether because in Just Kids, which I read of hers, or I I tried to listen to her read it, which is quite a wonderful experience. But the fact that she knew that she was an artist, but that she didn't know of what. I know. It's almost like you're born before you can... I mean, you can dance before you can walk. I mean, how did she know that there's something spiritual about that? Yes.

And in the book, she talks about going to the Philadelphia Art Museum, where you and I have been, of course, and seeing the Picastos. And it She was like this... She was thunderstruck like, This is me. This is what I need to be doing.

It was remarkable when you said that you were going to be with her. I was thinking to myself that There are very few people like Patty Smith in the world.

Yeah. She's the one and only with that question. So are you, too, Mama.

Oh, thanks, honey. Well, you're one of many. No, listen, are you kidding? There ain't nobody but you, Ms. Joya. That's for sure.

Nobody. All right. Love you, mommy. I'm going to say goodbye now and go lie down.

You're going to lie down. You want me to lie down?

I got to lie down. You can lie down if you want, but I got to lie down. We had so many technical difficulties. I have to go.

Well, I'm so sorry, but I'm starving. I'm going to go have dinner.

Okay, go have dinner. I love you tons.

I love you. Okay. Bye.

There's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content from each episode of the show. Subscribe now in Apple Podcasts. Make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at Wiser Than Me, and we're on Facebook at Wiser Than Me podcast. Wiser Than Me is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. This show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Alex McOwen, and Oja Lopez. Brad Hall is a consulting producer. Rachel Neil is VP of new content, and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplin, Stephanie Wittelswax, Jessica Cordova-Kramer, and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Barber. Our music was written by Henry Hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and, of course, my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcast. And if there's a wise old lady in your life, listen up. This episode of Wiser Than Me is brought to you by Maker's Mark. Maker's Mark makes their bourbon carefully, so please enjoy it that way.

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