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Lemonada.

I don't exactly know how I became a sports fan because I was not an athlete when I was young. I was born in New York, and early on, I learned to ride a tricycle, and I was good at that trike. I rode it in the hallway of our building. How much fun is an apartment hallway on a tricycle? It's like, just imagine being on a racetrack up and down and up and down. Although, as I say this, I am now remembering The Shining, and of course, not so fun in that movie, but in reality, it's in fact a lot of fun. But I lived in the city, and so I never learned to ride a bike until I was, I don't know, eight. Everybody was riding bikes by then, by eight. But I missed that window, and I was so embarrassed because I had to have training wheels. I was always unsure of myself on a bike, and I still am, really. I don't really love riding bikes. They scare me. Bikes were the gateway to sports in elementary school, and so I was just fucked, and I just didn't play sports. I went to an all-girls school, and the sports that were available to us were field hockey, basketball, tennis, and gymnastics.

I did not Excel at any of these things. At a girls' school, the sports girls were popular, and I think that's one of the great things about an girls' school. Women are the very top of the sports world. You cheer for girls, and all my best friends were athletic, so I wanted in on that. I tried gymnastics. I even competed in an event. I think this was in fifth or sixth grade or something. It was a big meet. Is that what it would be, a gymnastics meet? I don't know. Anyway, I had to do this routine on the balance beam that I practiced and practiced. I got up on the beam, big smile and everything, probably pretending Olga Corbitt or whatever, and there is a crowd there. And at that moment, I swear to Lord Jesus, the whole routine went out of my head completely. Just telling you this right now, it's making my palms went. I could remember nothing. So I just started to make things up. In the movie version of this, I improvised this great routine and everybody applaud, but in real life, I got the lowest score ever on a beam.

It was like less than one out of 10, by the way. That's my big sports memory. Oh, wait a minute. Here's another one. Okay, so we had two gym teachers, Mrs. Nevet, who everybody loved, and Mrs. Moody, who is English. This is probably the best moment of my high school sports career. We were in PE, and it was Tennis Day, and all of a sudden, I hear Mrs. Moody, the English one, she goes, Cover your eyes, girls. Cover your eyes. And a bunch of boys were streaking. Anybody remember streaking? Running around naked? It was the thing back then. It's a federal offense now, of course. But anyway, a bunch of boys were streaking naked across the field by the tennis courts. I don't know who these boys were. This was an all-girls school, so I suppose it was fertile ground for teenage male streakers. Anyway, four boys go running by, and I did just as Mrs. Moody instructed. I covered my But I remember I was laughing so hard. I mean, it's not a great come from behind victory. It's not a championship game. This is the sports memory that I have. The funny thing is that I consider myself athletic now.

I mean, sports and exercise are a huge part of my life, and our family life is totally sporty. My kids are great athletes. My husband is a sports nut. He's always riding a bike or a surfboard or kite foiling or snowboarding or something. I work out literally every day, and I love it. And growing up, my dad used to bet on a lot of sports. He had a bookie and everything, and he'd throw fits about the Mets and the New York Giants and the Knicks. And I paid no attention at all, except when he'd We had an envelope full of cash, which was great. That was always very exciting. But then my kids started playing high-level sports, and I started to see what it meant to them and started to get to know the other kids and their personalities and the stories that came along with the game. I became a pretty knowledgeable basketball fan, and I fell in love with college basketball and abracadabra. I'm a sports fan. In our current time when everything is fragile and unsteady and so complicated, and where so many things seem like lose-lose proposition, here are sports, which despite the dubious character of some of the participants and the corruption of the league, sports always come down to a definable contest.

There's a great line in that old Walter Hill B-Movie cult film, The Driver, Bruce Stern, who's always so good. I love Bruce Stern. He plays this rough cop, and at one point he says, You know what I do first thing every morning? Read the sports page. You know why? Best part of the newspaper. Winners, losers, how it happened. Final score. I love that. The clarity of that. God, is that appealing? No bullshit. You can't editorialize a final score. Winners, losers, heroes, heroes, heartbreak, elation. What's not to love? That's why I'm so glad that today we get to talk to one of the greatest of all champions, Billy Jean King. Hi, I'm Julia Louis-Dreyfus, and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are than me. Okay, let me set the stage here. In 1966, when today's guest first reached number one in the world in tennis, women couldn't serve on juries in any of the 50 states. They couldn't get an undergraduate degree from almost any Ivy League college. They couldn't run the Boston Marathon. They couldn't legally refuse sex with their husbands. Of course, there were some things they could do.

They could get fired for being pregnant. They could be denied a credit card without a male cosigner, and they could play any sport they wanted, just none professionally except golf. That's in 1966, not 1866. Then along came Billy Jean King, 39 grand slams, 20 Wimbleton titles, a lifetime of battling for and winning women's right to equal pay, not just in tennis, but way, way beyond. She founded and led the Women's Tennis Association and is the first female athlete ever to receive the presidential Battle of Freedom. Not to mention over 90 million people worldwide watched the match we now call the Battle of the Sexes. I mean, seriously, folks, let that sink in. Almost a quarter of Americans tuned in to watch her beat Bobby Riggs in 1973 in three straight sets, might I add. She's a sports icon, she's an LGBTQ plus icon, a feminist icon, and let's face it, she's just basically iconic. It's no exaggeration to say that Billy Jean King has changed the world. She is arguably the most important athlete of our time. I could not be more thrilled to talk to a woman who is so much wiser than me, the one and only Billy Jean King.

Hi. Hi. After that, I'm going to stop.

Don't stop. You got to keep going. You got to keep going.

Oh, no. I'm not done yet. Are you kidding? Everybody says, Well, now that you're so old, what are you going to do? And I said, I'm not done yet.

You haven't even started.

No, because I still have a lot of energy.

Well, so speaking of age, are you comfortable if we say your real age?

I love it. I'm 80. I just turned 80 last November, November 22nd.

But how old do you feel?

I don't know what an 80 supposed to feel like. I always ask myself, When I was 60, when I was 50, when I was 40, when I was 30, when I was 20, I'm like, What am I supposed to feel? I don't know. I am what I am. The number is there, but it's really how is my health, I think. Right.

Yeah.

Your health. Your health and how you feel and how do you feel. How do I feel physically, emotionally, mentally? I ask myself those questions. I mean, I still do therapy every week.

Psychotherapy. Psychotherapy. What about physical therapy?

I don't need physical therapy. Well, Elana, my wife, got me out during COVID And I love it to hit tennis balls again. I hadn't for 20 years. I had a lot of knee operations and shoulder, everything. I said, Okay, let's try, because I just love it so much. I mean, I love to hit the ball. So we do two or three times a week now. Lana was number one in the world in doubles, and she still plays a lot. So she's younger, she's in her late 60s, so she hits the ball right to me. It's just amazing. I meet people who are playing, and we have a 100 and under event category for people that are 100 and under, and it is hilarious. You know what shot they use all the time? It's a drop shot because you can't move, and it's hilarious.

But wait a minute, wait a minute. Who's the oldest?

I don't know who the oldest one is. I don't know. I've got to find out. No, I don't know. You got to find out.

I will find out. Somebody's got to be in their 90s, right? For sure.

Oh, no, no. They're just probably '98, '99 in there. Yeah, for sure.

Hey, so what's your relationship with your body like now, Billy Jean? I mean, has it changed as you've gotten older? Is your brain moving faster than your body?

How does that work? Oh, the brain definitely goes a little faster than the body now, but my brain's slower, too. I think I've always been in tune with my body. I just so everybody knows, a lot of people do know this. A lot of people do not. I have a younger brother. He's almost five years younger, four years, 11 months. Randy Moffet. Moffet's our birth name, and He played professional baseball for 12 years, most of those with the San Francisco Giants. But the third word we learned was ball. It was mommy ball, daddy ball. We are infatuated. They can roll it on the ground, they can throw it in the air. We didn't care. Then as you get older, you start to realize it's science and art together, and you want to be playing in front of people. You're a performer. It's so much fun. It's very expressive. I love dance. I love ballet. I love all that. I like, too.

My son Charlie was a D1 athlete. He played basketball. He had a teacher when he was in sixth grade. He had real trouble sitting still. By the way, his first word was also ball. And Right. And so he had this teacher who was incredibly intuitive, and she let him bounce a ball during class.

Smart.

Smart, right? Very. So he was able to concentrate as a result. Tracy, shout out to Tracy. That was incredible. That was brilliant. That she let him do that.

Yeah, brilliant. That's very interesting because in school, I got demoted with my grades when I did too well in sports because I'm a girl.

Demoted with grades? Yeah.

I got an unsatisfactory in a sass factory in fourth grade because Ms. Polychek said that I had done too well in sports and like, braggio show, I guess, to her. I didn't say anything. I just did it. And she said, I'm going to give you an unsatisfactory because of that. Now, that would never To a boy, he would be honored and- Yeah, he would be lauded for it. Correct. That's the difference growing up, always getting negative feedback for doing what I wanted to do.

But wait, how did your parents react to that when you got the unsatisfactory?

They just let it go. They said, Just ignore it. Don't worry. Just keep going. My mother didn't want me to play football and other sports because she wanted me to be a lady at all times. And I said, Mommy, what does that mean? She said, Oh, you know? And I said, No, mommy, I don't know what that means. I just remember that. So when I was playing tennis, she was happier, happier. But my dad understood totally. Basketball is our first love. So he was a basketball player, and he got asked back in the '40s to join the NBA, and he didn't because there wasn't any money in that time. And he's very risk-averse that generation with the Depression, World War II. But no, he came home and became a firefighter, which I love that he was a firefighter. Oh, God.

Yeah, I love that, too.

I loved it, but it was very difficult when he'd go to work because I never knew if he's going to come back.

So he was a proper hero, right?

Well, to me, he was because he believed in me as much as my brother as well. Yeah. I mean, he told me to go for it. And everybody else around me was saying, They didn't really care. But I really wanted to change the world through sports, through my sports. I know you did. That's really what... I wanted us to be a pro-sport. We were an amateur sport. It was so terrible. I used to just go crazy.

Hey, listen, let me ask you something just because I'm interested about this because you're obviously so fit, and here you are, 80 years old. You are.

You're right. I am fit for an 80-year-old, but I don't- Come on, give me a break. No, no, no. I'm also lifting again. I'm also doing a lot of weight work.

Okay, so that's my question. What's your exercise regime? Besides playing tennis 2-3 times a week with Elana What else are you doing? Lifting weights?

I started lifting weights again. I made a promise this year. Instead of doing it sporadically, I'd be pretty consistent, which I have been. But we're still working full-time. And work itself and traveling like we do, I think also also keeps me fit, also keeps my mind active, solving challenges, not problems. I am so happy I was in sports because it's made me strong. It just helped me be strong in every way. There's something Well, it must be like you when you're acting. I always wonder what actors go through.

In terms of what?

Like the pressure that's on you. Like they say, let's go, and you have to start the scene. And of course, if it's not live, which I'm sure you're thrilled with Seinfeld and others, that weren't live because I don't know how you guys get through a scene without cracking up at each other.

Well, sometimes we did. But having said that, there are endorphins that are the butterflies, whatever you would have called them, that are racing It's the same racing through your body when you're working. Yes. I mean, even now talking to you, I can feel that. I want to have a good conversation with you. I can feel that driver. That's in place. And It can paralyze you, but it can also be a great fuel. I usually use it for fuel, to tell you the truth.

I'm a fuel person. I like pressure. I have a saying, pressure is a privilege.

I know. I love that saying. It is a privilege.

It is a privilege to have our opportunity for you to do what you've done and continue to do and what I do and what I did. You know what I don't like about getting older is people give up on you.

Oh, come on. Who's given up on you?

No, there's ageism involved. There really is.

Talk about that.

Let's take commercials on television. Let's just take commercials. And not just television, obviously. It's everything now. I'd like people to, when they watch commercials, to really pay attention to who's in them. Let's just talk about the ones athletes are in. It's usually male athletes. They're older, but they are the ones who get the ads. If you'd see a woman, she's usually a lot younger, probably around 30. They don't give us the same opportunities. Do you know how many times they'll have a woman athlete or any woman, and They'll say, She's such a great role model for women. Now, go to a male. If a male is a role model, they don't say, Oh, he's a great role model for men. They don't say, He's a great role model.

He's a great role model.

I mean, hello. I know. It's like every One can be a role model for somebody if that's what the person likes. For me, Althea Gibson was my first she-ro, and she was the first to win. I didn't think of her that way. I thought of her as the number one player. If If you can see it, you can be it. So I saw her live when I was 13, and I realized how good I'd have to be. And I went, Oh, my gosh. I'm going to have to be that. I'm going to have to practice so hard. Oh, my God.

But you knew you were going to do it.

Yeah. Well, I certainly hope to. Of course, that was my goal since the time I was 11, to be number one in the world. There was no question. But still, to see Althea made a huge difference in my life in that she was number And if you can see it, you can be it. You know how good you have to be and what made her great.

I'm just so struck by the realization that you had when you were 12. I mean, you saw that so many people were being excluded from tennis, and you decided to work on changing that.

No, it When I was in tennis, it was life. It was like watching Little Rock, the Little Rock 9, or watching that Black kids couldn't go to school with the White kids. And I asked my dad, Why is that? That's ridiculous. He says, Well, it's the South. Because in Southern California, that never happened to me. It didn't matter. And that really bothered me.

Yeah, of course. And you also noticed that it was only white people playing tennis, right? When you went to that country club?

Absolutely. Everybody wore white clothes. Everybody played with white balls, and everybody played with white. I said, That's not right. This belongs to everyone. It's such a great sport. Although I didn't have the know-how at 12 years old that there were Black people playing, but I had never seen them. But they were. They formed their own association, the ATA, in 1916. So they had their tournaments, but they weren't allowed to play in the white tournaments. If you go to the US Open today, which a lot of people do, it's huge. It's one of the majors. And well, Black people weren't allowed to play until 1950. And that's when Althea was a player of the '50s, and that's when she won everything. And she won the US Nationals, now that it would be the US Open. And she was the first to win. Without her, there wouldn't have been an Arthur Asch or Zena Garrison or Serena or Venus or all these great players. And so I think that was a good example.

It's time for a quick break, but don't worry, there's more with Billy Jean King in just a bit. Makers, Mark Bur Urban is a sponsor on this season of Wiser Than Me, and MAKER SMART is offering you a way to honor the special women in your life in an easy and meaningful way. The co founder of Maker's Mark, Margie Samuels, left her own mark on the brand. She was the designer behind the red wax dip, the label, and even the name. So it's only natural that Maker's Mark partnered with talented artist, Gail Kabaker, to handpaint a beautiful label which you can personalize with the name of a wise woman you know, someone who makes an impact on you or in their community. Maybe that's your mom, grandma, sister, friend, or a coworker. It's a great way to let them know they're appreciated every single time they pour a glass. Maker's Mark is also honoring all these women by donating to Vital Voices, a change catalyst organization. They invest in women leaders who are taking on the world's greatest challenges, from gender-based violence to the climate crisis, economic inequities, and more. I'm lucky enough on Wiser Than Me to talk to extraordinary women who I have a lot to learn from, and I know you have extraordinary women in your life, too.

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I think my parents were good to each other, kind to each other, which I think was huge. Just watching how they related. Not to say it was perfect or anything. God knows that. But they get into it, but not. They're very good to each other and very kind and thought about others. But also, leaders don't choose followers, followers choose leaders. And a lot of times in sports, you need somebody to choose a team, for instance. And the kids always chose me to be the leader or the captain. And I was on a bicycle committee, and I was only supposed to be the secretary, but they ended up always saying, You lead. You do this. I go, No, no, no. You do. You do.

Wait a minute. Bicycle committee.

Yeah, we had a in elementary school, which I have no idea what it means now. No, I think we had to keep our bikes in a certain area. We had to take care of them. We had to put them in these racks. You got to just do the right thing and all that at the school, keep them in the right place. I love that. So I was on that committee, but I was always pushed into leadership positions. And finally, in Tennessee, when we were older, the players said, No, you're the one. You're the one. I go, No, no, no. Why not you? Typical girls, when they're trying to go out to dinner, Where do you want to go to eat? Oh, I don't care. What do you want? I don't know.

Where do you want to go?

What do you want? So if there's a guy in the group, I always ask the guy, go, Where do you want? He goes, I want to go here. We go, Great. Someone made a decision. Because we're taught always to think about somebody else. Okay? Always take care of the other. Anyway, the players pushed me. Finally, I just remember one night just daydreaming, lying down on the bed and just thinking, You know what? I'm going to not only accept this, I'm going to to thrive on it because I meant to. I thought back to my epiphany as a kid, how I felt about everything. I go, What am I doing? I meant to do this. And that was it. I just embraced it and absolutely decided to be the best leader I could be. But to be a great leader to me means, for instance, it can't be a me. You have to be we or you can't be I. You have to be us. You have to include others. It's always about, what can I do to help the people have a better life? How can I make it better for all of us, but particularly them first?

And that's what makes me tick, is creating opportunities for others. That's really what I love. Starting the Women's Sports Foundation, I founded it 50 years ago. We have our 50th anniversary this year. I am so stoked. We've given out over $100 million of just helping kids, especially girls of color. Also, we work with the National Women's Law Center over Title IX. Those are the things that matter to me a lot.

Have you ever very deeply doubted yourself as a leader?

Oh, for sure. You always wonder, especially when you didn't make it happen. If I didn't make it happen, I go, God, where did I go wrong? But you know what? You're only as good as the team is. Also, relationships are everything. They really are.

Yeah, right. It starts from that. But when was an example where it didn't go the way you wanted and then you had doubts? What would be an example of that, Billy Jean?

Well, the thing I love the most, probably in tennis, is World Team Tennis. Started in 1974. Elana and I ended up running it over time, over the last part of it. We sold it to billionaires because we thought, We really need more money in this if we're going to do it right. And they wanted it. So we sold it to them, but they let it go eventually. And so I was very upset with myself. And I thought, God, if I could start over. Because it's so easy in hindsight. Right. There wasn't the money in '74 that there is now. Now people are investing in women's sports. They're actually investing in it, not helping us. They think it's a great investment now for the very first time.

Yeah, they think it's an economic opportunity, which it is, by the way. It is. Which it is.

We're over 100 years late. It is really a lot of work in long term investment, but it's worth it because it gives women and girls platform they didn't have. And to help these kids, I keep telling them, every one of you is a leader in your town, your state, your country, your world. If you decide whatever makes you happy to do things, but look how much you can give back to kids coming up. But more importantly, it's about how can we help others that don't have as much. And women should try to make a lot of money. I tell women to be ambitious. We need to have more women on boards.

Yes, we do. We need We need more women on boards. We need more women in positions of leadership. We need more women, period, making decisions.

Oh, yeah.

Which, oh, God, this reminds me. By the way, I wanted to ask you about Renee Richards, the first transgender woman to play for the WTA back in the '70s? Correct. Can you tell us that story about how you convinced the players at the WTA to allow Renee to come on board? Can you tell us that story? So good.

Yes. Elana, my wife, she's the person ever to play Renee as a male and Renee as a woman. It is amazing.

Okay, that's, by the way, an incredible fact. But how did you get the other women on the tour to let Renee play? Tell that part.

Well, I went and talked to doctors. I said, How should we perceive this? I'm very ignorant. And they said, No, she's considered a woman. I said, Okay. I said, Do you think she should be able to play as a woman? And they said, Yes. I called Renee, which for me is hard to call. If you know me well, I'm actually shy and I have a hard time calling people.

Okay. I do have a problem believing what you just said.

You can ask Alana. She'll tell you. I sucked it up. Also, it's not about me here. It's about others. I'm a good one. It's about the team, okay? Yeah, I hear that. I called her and I said, Can I listen to you and talk to you? She's great. So we talked for four hours. I listened to her and I went back to the women. I said, You guys, we really should let her play. I've gone to the... I've done some homework. And they said, No. And I said, Okay, I hear you. And I had this thing with the women that always used to work. I finally figured it out. Which is? I said, How about if we try to let her play for two weeks? I would cut the time down really tight, short. So it's like a sample. It won't be too much for them psychologically, emotionally to handle. And they go, Okay, we'll try that. Okay, so she comes on the to her. And within three or four days, they come, She is so nice. She is so great. Because they were worried about the locker room. There's a lot of things that go through your mind that we're so ignorant we don't understand.

Oh, they loved her. They were fine. They were fine after that. That was fine. Now it's very different, though, because there's a lot more transgender athletes. And should they be allowed to play in elite competition? Some people are very emphatic about it, that they shouldn't. I'm on the side of inclusion. It's my first want. So I don't want anyone to be excluded. So we got to figure this out.

Yeah, we got to figure it out.

Because I don't want anyone not to be able to participate. That's what kills me.

So you spent so much of your life making the world, as you continue to do today, a better place for everybody else. Have you always taken care of yourself? Do you think that this is a way of putting off taking care of yourself to a certain extent?

For sure, when I was younger. But I took care of myself when I was playing because it was part of the goal. Like eat so many calories a day, work out, take good care of myself. I have to. It's part of my job.

I see.

I was very good then. But then I have an eating disorder, and I'm a binge-eater. Every morning I wake up, I tell myself I have an eating disorder. I still go to therapy. I still I think about it. It's interesting with the new injections, with the Ozempix of the world. It's very interesting because my doctor wants me to try it.

Do you want to?

I don't want to lose weight fast because I think it looks horrible. I don't think it's healthy. I would like to lose it slowly. But the important thing my therapist asked me, which I hadn't thought about, is that she said, quieted your mind? Because I've taken a few injections now. I went, Whoa, that's interesting. Because with an eating disorder, I have two voices in my head sometimes that argue.

And what do they say?

It's two sides. Let's say I want a quart of an ice cream. One side will say, Yeah, baby, I'm going to have that ice cream no matter what. And the other side says, No, don't do that. It's not healthy. You don't need it. You're not going to miss it. The other side goes, Screw you. I'm having this ice cream. So I have this discussion that goes on in my head, and sometimes it's very elevated. I mean, it really elevates. And that's why I thought it was very interesting, We talk about this in eating disorders. And it was such a great question because if it does do that- Quiet the voices. Quiet the voice. If that's a part of it, now I'm on it because That would be really great because that gets exhausting and tiring, and I don't want to fight over these things. It's like, God, do I have to go through this again every day? It's not every day. It's just different moments. And then I say, am I under more stress. Is that why this is happening? No, that doesn't follow it all. No, I've tried that. So the point is, I still get it.

It doesn't matter. So I got to pay attention. That's the main thing.

When exactly did you start to look after yourself? Really?

I'd say when I was around 50. And I was going through all my sexuality stuff like, Oh, my God, I was a mess. And that, I think, caused a lot of my eating disorder as well.

So what happened at 50?

I went to Rindfroo in Philadelphia back in '95-ish. And I went to therapy, and I lived there for six weeks. When you go there, you cannot communicate with the outside world, really. And I would go to therapy three times a week. There's also couples you I have to go to, which Elana about fainted. She's, What? She goes, Why?

Wait a minute. Renfrew is an eating disorder clinic, is it?

Yes. How are you going to live there.

Okay. Yeah.

And every Friday, you have family. Oh, boy. It's rough. And then you have every hour on the hour, you have a different movement therapy, sculpture therapy, everything therapy, whatever.

Did your parents come?

They finally came after I just kept pleading with them to come. They came once.

And how did that go?

It went all right. It went pretty good, except my dad leaned over to me and he's so cute. He goes, Billy, you're not like these other girls here. And I looked at him and I go, Dad, I'm exactly like these girls here. What did he... He started laughing. I started laughing because we always had a sense... We could always laugh at anything. We started howling. And I go, Dad- Wait, what do you mean? And there's this holding group there. What do you mean? No, because he thinks I'm fine. He thinks I'm great. And I go, Dad. I go, I'm just like them. I'm struggling. And he goes, Okay, honey, I hear you. Or, Sis, you'd call me. When things were good with Sis, when it was Billy Jean, if I came to the door, I knew I was in big trouble.

What about your mom? What was that like to have her there?

My mother had a harder time than my dad with Am I being gay or trying to figure out who I am, bisexual in the beginning? I don't know. And I noticed you call your mother mommy. I call my mother mommy, too. And I love calling my mother mommy. She also loved hearing it and receiving it.

Yeah, it's cozy, isn't it?

It's like a big hug.

It's just adorable. It's like a big hug. That's exactly right. And my boys call me mommy, and I love it.

I love mommy. I call my mommy mommy up to the end of her life. Yeah.

And you call your daddy daddy, right?

I called him Daddy. I call them daddy. Yeah. Obviously, I'm 80. They're not alive anymore, unfortunately. I wish they were. My brother and I talk about how fortunate we were to have them. And they never really ask us if we won. So many parents go, Did you win? Did you win?

Did you win?

They go, How did your day go? And of course, if I lost, I was just crazy. I said, I lost my match. I lost my match. I was so bad. My dad would go, I just have one question. Did you try your best? I said, Of course, I tried my best. He goes, That's good enough.

Yeah, you're lucky. Yeah, I am lucky. I have to say our son that I mentioned to you, he was a basketball player when he was young. And if he lost a game, my husband I would negotiate who was going to drive him home if we were there in separate cars. I love it.

That is so great.

Because he would be screaming and wriving in the back seat if they lost.

I should have been with him. We would have had a great time.

I mean, it was so fucking bad with him in the back seat. I'm telling you.

So how did you decide you wanted to be in entertainment? Can I ask you this?

Yeah, you can ask me anything. Yeah.

I'd rather ask you questions, really.

I just always I wanted to be an actor, just like from my earliest memory, I was always performing.

Yeah, you were because your mother explained that. You asked her how on Zia as a girl, remember, in one of your interviews? Yeah. When you talked to her and she said you were dialog, you had dialog going and you had this going. She said you were always basically acting, but she didn't say it that way.

When we were in nursery school, they used to have nap time. I I would stand on my blanket and I would dance for people during nap time. Oh, that's great.

So you like dancing, too?

Well, I like performing. So my nap time dance was... It seemed to be a big hit among the nursery school students.

It would have been great. Oh, my God. I remember kindergarten. That's what we're supposed to have, these little naps. I'm like, huh? Can I go play basketball? Can I go play baseball, softball? Can I go?

You know, I have to tell you, when I was in I didn't play much tennis because the one thing that I get... When I start to compete physically in a sport, I get very anxious. It's not for me. But I did go to a tennis camp when I was in eighth grade or seventh grade, and they gave awards out at the end, and they gave me miss congeniality.

Okay, but it's like... I could just see that. But it's interesting that you feel anxious When I listen to you, how you feel when you perform, it's how I feel when I play tennis. I don't feel that anxiety that you feel at the tennis camp at all. Yeah, right. I want to be where I am. I love it. In fact, I love tennis to be more boisterous. I think it's too quiet. I think we should have names on the back of the shirt. I think we are just so out of it because I keep saying, You guys, everybody... I said, You're You're talking to 40-year-olds. You're talking to 50-year-olds. I said, What about the seven, 10-year-olds? Their concentration spans seven seconds now. Yeah, no kidding. We got to do... But I've wanted this forever for our sport because I grew up in the other sports. Hey, how about... And Wimbledon went backwards. They go, Oh, no, we're going to go back to all white. What? I said, Oh, great. So now you turn it- You made all white clothes. No predominantly white anymore. So I turned on and go, Oh, great. Both people have white at each end.

Okay, great. Who's who? It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. We're out to lunch.

How do you make that change? That's actually an interesting change to try to- No, I'm just going to keep trying.

Because we have the Billy Jean King Cup, which is the World Cup of Women's Tennis now. They renamed it after me, and now we're involved in that, and we want to make that like the Soccer World Cup. It's the World Cup of Tennis. In the men's, it's Davis Cup, and we're working with them. I think there's a real culture to it that we are missing out on that would be fun for the audience? Because when you perform, as you know, everything is about your audience. And that tennis court is our stage. When I look at a tennis court, I go, Oh, that's my stage. Yeah, baby. Give me the ball type of feeling. So when you walk out there, here's what most players think, or athletes, they think everyone's there for them. No, we're there for the audience. Our job is to make the audience have a great day, a great moment. And when they go home at night, they go, God, that was great. That was whatever. And I want to go back, or I want to take up this, or I want to do that. It's like we are there for them. And everybody in tennis thinks the audience is there for them.

And I'm like, oh, my God, you're so I, I, I. It's we, them. I don't know. That's how I think.

Let's talk about for a second, female empowerment. Have you always in your life felt equal to men?

I've never felt equal to men.

Aha. Talk about that, Billy Jean King.

Let me correct that. I do feel equal. The world doesn't feel we're equal. That's what it is. The world looks at us differently. I don't particularly look at us that much differently, just on a personal level. But every single day I have to deal with- Some misogyny. If I'm around a male athlete, I'm definitely in the background. And yet people who are in the know, sometimes I'll say, hey, bud, you should move over. You're not even close to what she's done or something occasionally. But we're second-class citizens all the time. In pay, in attention, the money we make is always less. That's why I want women's sports to do well, because I know the more we make, the more people appreciate us, the more they think about every single job, though. It's about thinking Oh, women deserve to have the same. Yeah, we shouldn't have to be going through this. But the way how you started the program is exactly what the challenge is. Not to be able to get a credit card when I was playing. And also, in 1966, actually, Title IX hadn't happened. Title IX happened in '72. So I didn't get a scholarship.

I didn't get paid to go to college. I worked two jobs. And nobody gave... I think it had been reversed. Let's say I'm the one that got to go to college on a scholarship, and the guys didn't. I guarantee you everybody be absolutely crazed that the men don't. When the men don't get something, they go crazy. Well, they need to do that more and more for us.

And they're listened to. It's funny. I was talking to my friend Paula about this just yesterday, and we were saying, it's interesting how many times in conversations, just in social conversation, if a man starts speaking and holding forth, right? Yeah, everybody shuts up. Right. Everyone shuts up, including myself, by the way, which I'm now, as I say this, very irritated with myself about that. But there is this unspoken, well, that makes sense that he's bloviating.

That's too big a word for me.

But isn't it a good... No, isn't that a good word? It's a great word. Doesn't that totally describe what it is? Yeah, it does.

But here's what happens in boards. A woman will have an idea. She comes up with it. But until the guy says exactly the same thing she did, they go, Oh, Joe, that was a great idea, even though the woman had said it earlier. And they steal the ideas all the time and take credit for it.

I mean, and in my own life, I mean, of course, there's misogyny.

Well, in entertainment, it's unbelievable.

It's unbelievable. And I had to struggle enormously and really push back to try to get credit as producer on various projects I've worked on. And I got big time pushback despite the fact that I had had decades, decades of experience.

Yeah, and you truly were the producer of the show, one of the producers, at least, of the show.

Exactly. And I got pushback from studios, from various other producers. I mean, it's infuriating. And it's also... Sometimes it's just, I'm not going to lie, it's intimidating. Yeah, it is. Because there is that little voice that says, Oh, really? Do I not deserve this? Am Are you wrong to be asking?

I hope you don't get that much anymore, that part.

No, I don't. I don't. But it has been there.

It's been there. Look how much you've won. I mean, we'd say win in sports. I mean, all the Indies and the awards and Yeah. I mean, you really have to suck it up. I suck it up all the time. I just... Yeah, I suck it up, too. Because sometimes you can't. You can't. You just have to keep quiet because you're not going to win. You know that, too. There's certain times you go, Okay, I'm going to have to let this one go. I don't like it, but I'm going to have to let it go.

We'll get more wisdom from Billy Jean King after this super quick break. Stay tuned. Imagine each day bringing a new chance to reinvent yourself, where depending on how you're feeling, you can change up your style in a way that feels right to you. Pairiwear is here to make it a reality, to help us express ourselves to the fullest. Pairiwear offers completely customizable frames, meaning endless combinations for your daily looks and limitless possibilities for your style. Pair offers hundreds of budget friendly frames and magnetic top frame styles to choose from, starting at just $60, including prescription. Pair eyewear is not just about seeing the world more clearly. It's about embracing your individuality and expressing it with flair. With base frames starting at $60 for men, women, and kids, and sun tops at $30, there's something for everyone. The durability and versatility of these glasses meet the demands of any lifestyle, particularly the sun tops. If you've ever been frustrated by the price tag of those expensive prescription sunglasses, or if you just want to avoid digging around in your bag for your sunglasses constantly in the summer, which I always loathe doing, definitely check them out.

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And people, you really have to understand how big this was. It was huge. And you played him. And thank God, oh, my God, I am so happy you won that, Billy Jean.

So am I. It was big. It was a huge turning point, really, because Title IX had just been passed the year before. We were in our third year of women's professional tennis. It was very crucial social that I went because we had our tour. I think if I'd lost, I don't know if the tour would have made it or not because it really helped enhance what we were trying to do. Also, men's professional tennis was young as well. The day after that match, you couldn't get on the tennis court. That's when we had the big tennis boom. That's just for tennis. But for society, finally in '75, we were allowed to get a credit card on our own, would be.

Congratulations.

But what it did piqued the interest of people. Both genders are all genders, we'd say now, but then both genders, men and women. And women, it really helped their self-confidence. I could not believe how they changed. They would run up to me, thanking me. And then they go, You know what? I've been wanting a raise for 10 years, and I finally have the courage to ask for it. I said, Well, more importantly, did you get it? And she said, I did get it because girls are taught not to ask for what we want and need. We are taught, Do not go there. Do not ask. And they did.

Well, there was a cultural shift because you won. And did you keep in mind what was on the line, or did you have to tuck that away and focus on the... How did that work in your head as you were actually playing?

Well, I knew six weeks out. And six weeks out, I'm a mess. I'm thinking about all the consequences. I'm picturing myself running every ball down. I'm picturing myself making Every shot. I'm picturing bad calls. I picture how I'm going to react to that. I'm not going to react. I'm going to stay. I'm going to get in the next point right away. I'm going to stay focused. I'm not going to talk. I picture myself making every shot, running every shot down. I picture myself getting every serve in, everything, but also responding to things that aren't great. I also go out the day before and meet all the security guards. I meet all the administrators. I meet everybody there. This is an astrodom. Nothing's worse than not is getting lost in an arena. I get to know everybody. I went in the stands, I went up to the top in the cheap seats to see what it would feel like as a fan. In other words, I Totally prepare. I'm really big on preparation. I think process is just how you win. You stay in the now, you stay in the present. Well, I know when you're acting, aren't you in the present?

Totally. And when you don't do well, we're not.

Right. In that sense, it's like a meditation. Correct. Because it's just a singular focus, right? Yes.

If you talk to other people that are the best in what they do, it always comes down to being in the present. I call it in the now.

Do you meditate, by the way?

Yeah, I do meditate, yes.

Every day?

Probably, yeah, I think so. And I can meditate for 15 seconds, even help. Yeah. And even in a match, if you're changing ends and you sit down, that's a great time to meditate for 15, 20 seconds. You get about 90 seconds. So take a part of that and just meditate. Just get your breathing down. Just be. And Yes, I can do that. But I can compartmentalize very quickly. My brain goes very fast. I can compartmentalize really quickly, which I didn't realize others couldn't do, which I think has been a big help to me. I also knew that if I were going to If this were going to be my life to try to make this world a better place, that I wouldn't win as many titles, and I was willing not to win as many titles. If off the court, if it would make the world a better place, that to me is winning more than ever winning a match like against Bobby Riggs.

By the way, you've done both. You've made the world a better place, and you've won a gazillion titles.

I'm not finished yet.

I know you're not. Okay, I'm not saying you're done.

No, I'm kidding. No, I'm kidding you.

It sounds like you are obviously an incredibly competitive person, certainly as a tennis player, but also as a businesswoman and as a leader, you have a sense of, let's get it done, let's win this thing. Am I right?

Yes, you're right. To me, what does that mean? Creating opportunities for the generation now and the generations that will follow. It gives them opportunity, it gives them hope. It gives them... And then get scholarships. It just helps them be a better player, a better person.

Better human being.

Yeah, but because as an athlete, you're done early. So what are you going to do with the rest of your life? Singers can keep singing. You can keep working in comedy forever. We know that at a very young age, we cannot do that. So what are we going to do? Those are the kinds of things we have to think about.

Yeah, exactly. Which, by the way, leads me to this question, though. So this is from... I have a niece who's a D3 athlete in Emory. She plays soccer.

Emory is great.

Yes, great. And I texted her. Her name is Grace, and I texted her yesterday. I said, Gracie, I'm talking to Billy Jean King tomorrow. And I said, Do you have any questions? And she said the following, to your point. She said, What advice do you have for young athletes transitioning into the working world and leaving behind life as student-athletes? Because I think she feels untethered without the sport that she's been playing her whole life.

Well, there's two things that she could think about. I can stay in soccer, but not play soccer. There's a thousand jobs. That's another great thing. There's jobs all around your sport if you want to stay in it. There's three things that Ed Willard and I, our mentor, Ed Willard, who's the President of DuPont and CEO and dear friend who just passed, he and I, I said to Ed, I need three things for graduations, but I need three things I can give them that will help them the rest of their lives. I want to do this. I want this to make it simple, easy. The three things are, and they do not have to be in this order. Relationships are everything. So while Gracie's playing soccer, meet as many people as you can, get to know everyone, really enjoy them as human beings, get to know them because you never know. You just don't know. And it's fun. I think it's fun. And it's fun. Well, I love people, so it works for me. But the second one, to keep learning and to keep learning how to learn. Like, technology for my age group is rough.

So I'm always She's asking the eight-year-old, Come over here. Help me. Yes. And then the third one is be a problem solver and an innovator. And that means in real life and in work or whatever you do. And those three things, I think as I go through Each day, I know I hit on those, at least one of them every day.

This is great wisdom what you're imparting. I mean, for real.

Do you think that will help Gracie, though? That's why I did it for her.

I'll let you know. I know. I really appreciate it. I'm going to tell her.

But being in a sport, she can stay in the sport in a different capacity if she loves it, like doesn't want to leave soccer. But more importantly, what else does she want to do? But those three things I think will cover just about any direction she wants to go.

Okay, so Now, listen, I want to ask you something. I'd like to know if there's something you'd go back and tell yourself at 21.

21? Let me think where I was 21. Okay, 21 is right before I went Wimbledon and all that. I probably didn't understand enough at that time about being my authentic self. Like, who am I? I didn't know who I was yet. And nowadays, I think that's the one great thing with today is that I think I would have had a bigger chance, a better chance to be my authentic self being a younger person today. Got it. Not to say it wouldn't be difficult or whatever, because we never know. I think trans people have a really hard time today. I think the LGBT community is having a harder time again. I don't like it. I think that we should just be kind and good to each other as human beings first. We all bleed red. It doesn't matter what color our skin is. It doesn't matter how we self identify sexually. It doesn't matter that we just start. I always think when I meet somebody that I think of it as I go blank. I try to go blank in my head to start with a blank piece of paper in a way before I start drawing who this person is.

And that I really always want to think the best of them first. And then if they prove differently over time, then that's a whole other discussion. But I think it's really important to start out with just being kind and good to whoever you meet and don't have any preconceived ideas about them. And we're all biased, but the important thing is to do a gut check when we are. I always go, Stop, start But with nothing first. Just be good unless they prove to you that they're just bad news or bad news.

Is there anything before we go, is there anything that you want me to know about aging You know what I found?

I think aging has been, in some ways, the greatest in some ways is tough. Tough physically, there's no question. And also your mind, mentally. I don't want to get dementia, for instance. I'm scared of that because my My parents had it, things like that. But I'll tell you what's really been fantastic. What? And that is, emotionally, I am so happy compared to my young days. I cannot tell you.

Really?

But I've worked at it through therapy, through thinking, through just going through tough times. But I just emotionally am in such a great place now.

Oh, my God.

How great is that? I hope you are now, too, but I don't know where everyone- Yes, I am.

No, I am. I'm in a very touch wood. I'm in a very good place. It sounds like you are. Yeah. Yeah, I am. I totally am. But I'm so happy that you say that. And you're not actually... Because on this show, we speak to older women about their wisdom. And you're not the first person who has said that. There's something that you're able to sit comfortably in and let go of a lot at a certain age, which is a complete blessing, right?

Yes. And also when you're older, you have a perspective that you didn't have as a younger person. You have perspective. You've lived longer. Things don't bother you as much. That's why kids love their grandparents so much. Because a grandparent goes, Yeah. And they say, Oh, my God, I got to tell them this, but oh, my God. And then you tell them, they go, okay. And they go, you're not upset or anything? No. Are you okay? Whereas a parent, what? It's so different. Yeah.

A lot of hand wringing. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, completely. Yeah.

They're more understanding.

It's It's true. It's completely true. I can't thank you enough for talking with me today. I really enjoyed every second of this conversation.

Yeah, me too. It's been great. I really appreciate it. Say hi to everybody and tell your team of people because everything starts with team, really. Totally. Tell them thanks again for all their help. I really appreciate it. Good luck in your lives. Go for it.

Oh, my God. Billy Jean King. That woman is just so impressive. That human is impressive. My mom is going to love to hear about this one. It's time to get her on a Zoom call. Hi, mommy.

Hi, love.

How are you?

Good. It's Is it raining, rainy, rainy here. Is it raining there?

I wish. No, it's full sun. But we talked to Billy Jean King today.

Wow.

You would just love this woman, Billy Jean King, mom. She is such a positive human being. Let's talk about the Bobby Riggs match, because he originally wanted to have this match with her. Billy Jean King is obviously a serious professional athlete, has no time for this bullshit match with Bobby Riggs. And then Margaret Court, who was another professional tennis player at the time, and she did play him, and she lost. And so then when Bobby Riggs came to Billy Jean and said, Now I'm going to beat you, Billy Jean King realized what was at stake here, she knew that the symbolism of this match was critical and that she had to win it.

I mean, it was a joke match in many ways.

Then it wasn't because- Right, exactly.

She won. Then that humorous way, it changed the of history.

Well, it did, didn't it? I mean, she says that, generally speaking, women's self-confidence was lifted up in a way. It's funny because I think it really seeped into the win, really seeped into the culture in terms of feminism and women's empowerment and sense of self.

He was such a braggadocio, and he was going to win, and he was going to win, and he was going to win. That made it even more delicious, the fact that she just played the game.

And she played him and killed him in three straight sets. I asked her, does she feel equal to men? And she said she feels equal to men, but the world doesn't feel that way. What has been your experience as a woman in a world where men are in charge?

From my generation, I would say that one thing in the beginning, I just went along with it. I mean, it just... I accepted that. When I went to Duke, I went as a pre-med. Well, all I had to do in the south at that time in the '50s was say I was going to go to med school, and they'd say, No, women don't go to med school. I said, Oh, okay. I mean, that shows you that whatever they said was fine. I said to a friend of mine one time that I think my generation was sideswiped by feminism, the feminist movement. In other words, it happened to us. We didn't... Well, people like Billy Jean King made it happen, but most of us were living with the reality of it and keeping our skills and our power to ourselves. So women with other women could do all kinds of things, but it let a man enter the room, and it was a very charged charged in a different atmosphere.

Describe what that means. How is it charged and how is it different?

The women were the generators when they were together and talking. But if a man came in, there was a a giving over. It's like, Oh, well, what do you have to say, what you have to say, what do you think? That's what's really important. Then in so many instances, even now in a room, it'll be the men that... I mean, for a woman to be heard in a room, sometimes even, is like people sit back and it's noticed. Not so much now, maybe because, of course, we've had- Well, maybe now, mom.

Maybe now. I'm certainly aware of that. I'm certainly aware of the fact that, like in a writer's room, for example, male writers are much more comfortable taking charge and saying what's what and speaking up in a way that women aren't necessarily. I mean, I realize that's a big generalization. Of course, it's not always the case, but it's funny how it's that inequity has tiny little roots that have filtered into the culture in a way that is poisonous without even realizing I think that's really a wonderful way to put it.

What's interesting is that when you get older, and I would say that there are more women now living longer than men, and they are taking charge. I mean, they do. They take charge, and they don't think too much about it. I mean, it's just like, I've always done this, or I've been waiting to do this, or it's within them as something that hasn't always been tapped.

They were just waiting for the guys to die, and then they're going to...

That's one way. But you know, one thing that I'm excited about you having talked to Billy Jean King is because she truly was iconic, is iconic. I mean, she's a figure that represents so much right turning, correct being. She seemed to have a motor in her that was just going to go. She's the life force in her. I say there's a woman that has used it all of her life.

All of her life, and for the greater good, by the way.

Well, thanks to her for women getting paid in athletics now. Thanks What is it that women getting looked up to in athletics.

But women in athletics, period. Back in the day, the only professional sport women could play was golf. Yeah, right. That was it. Couldn't play any sport professionally, i. E, be paid for it. By the way, she loves that I call you mommy because she calls her mom, or her mother's passed away now, but she called her mom mommy and her dad daddy, just like we do.

I love that. There's something so cozy about that.

That's what I said to her. She says it's like a giant hug.

It is. And when you hear mommy, like when you hear, I don't know what your boys call you, but when you- mommy.

They call me mommy or mama.

Yeah. Right. It's too wonderful. It's too wonderful. So keep it up for everything.

A hundred % mommy. I always will. All right, mama, I'm going to say goodbye to you. I love you.

Thank you. I love you too, honey.

There's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonada Premium. Subscribe subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content from each episode of the show. Subscribe now in Apple Podcasts. Follow the show at Wiser Than Me on Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook, too. Wiser Than Me is a production of Lemonada Aminata Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. This show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Jamila Zaraa-Williams, Alex McOwen, and Oja Lopez. Brad Hall is a consulting producer. Rachel Neil is VP of New Content, and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplin, Stephanie Wittelswax, Jessica Kordova-Kramer, and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince-Evans with engineering help from James Sparber, and our music was written by Henry Hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel, and of course, my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your And if there's a wise old lady in your life, listen up. This episode of Wiser Than Me is brought to you by Maker's Mark. Maker's Mark makes their bourbon carefully, so please enjoy it that way. Maker's Mark, Kentucky Straight Bourbon Whisky, 45% alcohol by volume.

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