Lemonade. You know, I dont usually play characters who are first and foremost beauties. I mean, you know, Elaine, for example, she was cute enough, but there was no requirement of beauty, and the character didnt lead with that. And maybe its a lucky thing, too, because I have a semi uncomfortable relationship with my looks. I mean. Well, no. I mean, not exactly. Okay, that's not fair. I'm actually perfectly fine looking how I look. What I mean is that, sure, some days I wish I looked younger or prettier or sexier or, you know, whatever. But that's a, you know, that's like a cultural requirement for women, and that is a different subject. So never mind. I like to play characters.

That's what I like.

When I'm required to be just me. When the focus is my image in front of a camera with no script, no character, that's. That's harder for me. I've. I've always felt so ill at ease on the red carpet. For this reason, I'm not exactly complaining. I really am not. I know I'm lucky to be there. This is a good problem to have, but it doesn't mean I feel comfortable. And the same thing is true at photo shoots, too. I'm always trying to look like I'm at ease, but my interior monolog is just. It's going a mile a minute, and it's basically saying, get me the fuck out of here. I mean, really, don't get me wrong. I do love to get dressed up. I love pretty clothes. Like, I mean, I really love them. I love having my hair and makeup done, generally speaking, you know, assuming it turns out okay. But the part of walking the carpet or posing on a photographer's set has always been a challenge for me. Like, I often find myself actually holding my breath without realizing it. I actually get lightheaded. I have to remind myself to breathe. I never really feel quite up to the task.

And I can really obsess on how I look after the fact, which is a bad place for me to go. I've discovered that my resting face is not always good for photos because I look sort of mean. And if I smile, it's usually better. So sometimes I just am smiling like a crazy person up and down the carpet. Oh, God. It's hard. Man. This is such a silly thing to complain about, of course, but here's where I'm going. I am amazed at how some people can just command that moment, that moment in front of a photographer's lens when it's really only about you. So I have enormous admiration. I'm in awe of the people who can do it. What a skill. It takes a kind of daring and confidence and fearlessness that just blows me away. So once I was shooting veep in London, and Lady Gaga was staying at the same hotel where we were all staying, and a ton of fans were always waiting outside the hotel behind these little barricades at all hours, waiting for her to make an appearance. And every time she came out of the hotel, and this could be, by the way, several times in a day, she would be in a completely, totally different outfit every time.

And each one was more outrageous. The last, like, there was one sort of a hidey thing with braids that were wired to stick straight out. And then there was one with the most extravagant giant feathered parasol and one that was like a hefty bag with these crazy revealing holes in it. And then one night, I was coming in, she was coming out, and she was in this kind of a white gown, like a chrysalis or something, and she could barely move her feet. And she goes out in front of all these fans clamoring for her, and she just unfolds herself and holds her arms out like this, like wings, and the front of her gown becomes a bed sheet of the Mona Lisa. I mean, it's the whole goddamn painting. It was just so dazzlingly preposterous. If I ever wore something like that, people would just have to laugh at me. I would laugh at me. Just thinking about it cracks me up. But Gaga can do it because she's got that thing, you know, that total commitment to her Persona. She's like, I am fucking gaga. And I was gobsmacked, as they say in the UK, by her presence, her delivery.

She owned that space. And the real, the super, super, super star, supermodel types, that's what they can do. They own it. It's their superpower. So, sure, I can fake it or parody it, no problem. I think I could play it and get a laugh, but I need that distance. It's not really me. So if you see me on the carpet for some awards thing or a gala or a benefit, smiling away, and this is just between you and me, dear listener. It's a performance. But a select few women, they can do it for real. And fewer still can take that skill, that command, and through hard work, brains and, yeah, beauty, create a career that goes well beyond celebrity and fashion and opens up opportunity for women across the world. And one of those women is with us today, Beverly Johnson. Hi, I'm Julia Louie. Dreyfus. And this is wiser than me. The podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. Okay, so imagine you are a super smart, bookish nerd. You're a lanky five foot ten. You're an Olympic level swimmer with a full ride scholarship to Northeastern University. But you're also so gorgeous that you get the chance to give up the pool and become a supermodel.

Would you take it? Well, that's exactly what happened to our guest today. And she did become a supermodel and convinced her professors to give her college credit for modeling. I told you she was super smart. But when she got in front of a camera, boom. She became one of the most successful models of all all time. And this started in the 1970s in New York, so that means she's queen of the city. You know, hanging out at Studio 54 with Halston and Grace Jones and Andy Warhol. She and Jackie O were on a first name basis. She was living the life. I mean, honestly, I cannot even imagine the glamor. So how successful was she? She did the COVID of Vogue, the first ever black model on the COVID of the magazine. Do you know just how impactful it must have been for so many women to finally see themselves on the COVID of the most important fashion magazine in the world? That historic moment marked a turning point in the fashion industry and opened doors for models of diverse backgrounds to finally step in. God, it was about time. And she's done more than 500 magazine covers since the New York Times named her as one of the 20th century's 100 most influential people in fashion.

She has become this powerful symbol for representation in the industry. So you get the idea this is a true fashion icon. And it doesn't stop with the modeling. She's also an actress, a businesswoman, a trailblazer, an important activist, a mother and a grandmother, and a force of nature. And she's clearly wiser than me. God, it is so fabulous to welcome Beverly Johnson. Hi, Beverly.

Hi. Thank you for that introduction.

Oh, my God. Thank you for your wonderful self. So we always start this podcast with some pretty upfront questions. Are you comfortable telling me your real age?

Yes. What is it?

You tell me, what is your real age?

I lie so much, I really don't know.

I believe you're 71, Beverly. Is that correct?

Oh, okay. Yes, I'll go with that.

Okay, yes. But now, listen, how old do you feel?

Oh, gosh. Embarrass to say.

Tell me.

I'm a teenager.

You are? For real?

Yes, I'm a teenager.

What? Explain to me, why are you a teenager at heart? How would you characterize that?

Well, I'm blushing now. I'm all giddy after that introduction. Yes. Not like I haven't heard it before, but it's just something that comes over me that becomes very young and naive and feeling very kind of giddy.

Yeah, that's nice. And so. And so, what would you say is the best part about being your age? What's the best part of that? I mean, if there is a best part of it.

Oh, it's all good. It's really all wonderful. I'm more in touch with how I feel and how my spiritual aura is, you know, what I'm doing. Am I going to the parent teacher meeting for my grandchildren? I mean, I'm all about other things, and so I don't really think about the 71, if that makes sense.

Yeah, it does. It means you're living life fully, is what it sounds like to me.

In the moment. I'm in the moment.

You're in the moment.

Yes.

You're a mindful person.

Yes, I am. I've always been. I have girlfriends that we were best friends since the day we were born. And. Yes. Is this.

Is this dada?

Yeah.

We talk about in your book.

Yes, Dada. And she says you're exactly the same person. Oh. I'm like, I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

That's a very good thing. I mean, I think I know what you mean, though. I mean, you want to evolve, right, as a human being.

Right. But I think she was talking about personality.

Yeah.

She gave me this letter. Cause we used to pass letters to each other every single day on the bus, and we live next door to each other.

Oh, lucky you.

And she's a pack rat, and she collected everything. Beverly Johnson in her attic. I mean, like, mannequins and everything. I said, this is getting creepy, daughter. This is getting creepy, you know? Yeah. And I'm not sentimental at all. And so she gave me one of these letters, which I'm sorry she did, because I've lost it already. But it said, hey, he didn't speak to me. But that's okay. I know he likes me. I'm just going to ace this test and have a great day. I said, I'm the same person.

Okay, so now that speaks to what I am so struck with about you, Beverly. I mean, okay, you seem to me to be a very driven person.

Yes.

I mean, from the get go, as a student, as an athlete. I mean, you have to be driven to be an athlete, as a model, as a businesswoman, as an advocate.

Yes.

And I think the strive is also spilled into your ability to stand up to bullies and to sexual harassers and to stand up to leaders in the workplace, you know, like Eileen Ford and Anna Wintour, just to name a few. So where. Where do you think that that extraordinary drive comes from, Beverly? I mean, and has it gotten bigger, stronger, more muscular? Where does, where does this come from in you?

I believe that I was born with a fire in my belly. I believe I was just born this way, really, because I can't think not being this way. I'm an introvert. I'm a very quiet child. And they used to call me the alien, you know, my brothers and sisters, because I was very methodical. You know, I get the a's on my report card, and they say, here she is. She's getting the a's again. You know, she's ironing her clothes for the whole week of school.

Oh, I see. Uh huh.

It's just who I am.

Were your parents like that?

Well, they were very methodical in what they were doing and in life about us, you know, us children in the household. So I would say more my mother than my dad. My dad, you know, was a steel laborer, and my mother was a nurse, but she was a housewife before that. And I remember her studying because, you know, they weren't, they needed more money, and she was studying these books about becoming a surgical technician.

Wow.

And, you know, I'm always fascinated with books, and my father was a big reader, so all of us kids are very big readers. And I just looked at her, and I was like, wow. And it was so complicated. And I said, are you going to pass? She said, oh, yeah, I'm going to pass. So I think I got that from her.

Oh, yeah. You got that from her.

Yes.

Yeah. And there she was, you know, the woman in your life modeling this example of total excellence and determination.

Yes.

Yeah. Obviously, you are known for your extraordinary all of your work, but in particular, the famous American Vogue cover. I mean, that was not a fluke. That was something that you had been working towards as a young model.

Yes.

Can you explain what happened then?

So Eileen Ford was the most powerful woman in the fashion industry.

Yes.

And it was the first woman that I saw that really wield power. You know, I go to the agency just to observe her and the business, because I'm learning. That's what I do, you know? Yeah. I'm learning. You watch and I watch, and I realized that I needed that Vogue cover to be the top model in the world, and I needed to get a cosmetic contract, do a beauty book, because this is what I'm learning. Right?

Yes.

And so I make an appointment with her, Eileen Ford. And she's very matter of fact, I adore her, and she's been a very big help for defining who I am. I just want to say that up front. Okay. But then I said, you know, eileen, I like to have. I want to do a beauty book. I want a cosmetic contract, and I want to be on the COVID of American Vogue. And she said, you'll never be on the COVID of American Vogue. And she's a tough lady. But I was, like, taken back. She said, who do you think you are, Cleopatra? And I thought to myself, underneath my breath, I said, that's exactly who I think I am.

Yeah, exactly.

But one thing I knew was, as this 19 year old or 20 year old, however old I was, that I wasn't going to get that cover there.

But let me ask you something for a second. When she said that to you, in that moment, did you feel. Did she make you feel shame at all or not? Was there a glimmer of it?

None of it, no.

God, I just love this.

Right? I don't know why, but, no, no, I didn't feel ashamed. I analyzed the situation and thought, well, I'm not going to get that cover here. And you can't leave this woman. Cause I've heard about who leaves Eileen Ford, what happens to that model.

Right?

And that's why I decided that I was going to write her a note and tell her how her and Jerry were like parents to me and how much respect I had for them and that, you know, I'm going to another modeling agency. But I would hope that if I ever changed my mind, that they would accept me back.

Okay. You know what? It's like you're playing chess, and you're five steps ahead. That's what's happening right now in this story, to me, anyway. That's how it strikes me, because that is just smart as shit that you did that. And so she obviously was not offended, correct? She wasn't offended that you left once you wrote the letter or what?

I have no idea. All I know is that my bookings increased so that people were booking me to find out why I left Eileen forward. And what has she done?

I don't think. That's not the only reason they booked you. You had good representation then, at the Wilhelmina agency. Right.

Wilhelmina was an amazing lady, an incredible woman in person. Yes. And first of all, she had hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of vote cover. Huge fashion model. And she was a model of Eileen Ford. So she's in. I go in the office. They said, she'll see you. Now. I go in the office, and she has her feet up on the table, legs crossed on the table.

Yes.

And she has a slice of pizza in one hand and a cigarette in the other.

Nice.

And I'm like, oh, I like this lady. I mean, I'm just like. She was just the coolest ever. Yeah. And that's how our whole relationship started. She's just a really nice woman. And I told her what I wanted. She said, I'll get it for you. I'll do it.

Wow.

And she did.

Wow.

But the one thing that I like to say.

Yes.

After I got the COVID and I was there, I don't know, maybe six months, maybe eight months to a year, I went back to Eileen Ford.

Oh, you did?

Oh, absolutely.

Okay, now, wait a minute. Explain that to me. Why I'm so curious.

Because she's the biggest modeling agency in the world, and that's where I need.

So she could get you more gigs, better gigs.

I could capitalize off of the Vogue cover I made. Now, I don't know where I got that from, but I learned a lot from her, because when she saw me, Eileen Ford said, welcome home, baby.

And did she say, was there any kind of ownership that she had made a mistake or anything?

No. None. None. No, none. None. It was business as usual. It was business as usual. They were booking me. They were on top of it. I was like, I see. I just shot.

Yeah.

You know, and I knew that you were just shot straight up.

Yeah, right. Well, what about Wilhelmina? What was that like, leaving Wilhelmina?

I did the same thing with her.

You wrote another letter, I hope.

I didn't write a letter. I told her in person.

Uh huh.

And she understood. Smart lady. She understood.

Uh huh.

And I had gone back and forth to her a few times. Anyways, I was just making moves. How I. How I knew this to do. As a 19, 2021 year old, little naive young lady from Buffalo, New York, I have no idea.

Yeah, exactly. And you say you're naive. I'm not so sure you're that naive. I mean, it sounds like you got intuition.

I don't know. Yeah.

It's an instinct. It's an instinct. It's a drive. It's ambition. It's an instinct. That's just really strong. But wait a minute. So can we just talk about life in New York?

Yes.

In the seventies.

Oh, my goodness.

First of all, you've got so many fabulous stories. I would love to hear every single one of them. But there's one in particular I need to know about. You talk about being at studio 50, studio 54.

Once for three days.

Once. But it was for three days straight.

For three days. For three days, yes.

Okay, so could you please walk us through what that was all about, because you actually slept there.

Well, I don't really know if we were sleeping, but I was there for three days. But what you have to understand is I'm working all the time, all over the world, and I don't really get a chance to partake in the nightlife and all that was going on in that era in seventies or eighties, because I'm gone. Right. I'm living out of a suitcase.

Yes.

So I take this opportunity to say, I'm gonna go to Studio 54, and I drive up in a taxi, and of course, you know, it's mounds of people standing out front. Yeah. And I see this little guy, Steve Rubell. Now, I didn't know that. He says, come up, and it's like the partying of the partying of the seas. Thank you. And I walk in, and I had never experienced anything like that before Studio 54. Just the music and the joy and, you know, people walking around in their underwear. I mean, it wasn't all out front, you know, there's different layers. And I, you know me, I have to investigate every part of it. Some places I shouldn't have gone down to, but I went everywhere in Studio 54.

And what places should you not have gone down to?

Downstairs?

What happens?

Not that well, I just want to see. It was a lot. It was a lot going on. Let's just put it that way. It was a lot going on down there. Things that I had never seen before.

No, come on.

Up close and in person.

Are you talking about sexual things going on?

Yes. Yes.

Is that what you mean?

Yes. Uh huh. Yes.

Everyone's doing it every which way.

Oh, man. It was surely an education. But then, then Halston and Steve Rubell and all the designers, and, you know, that. That don't really get to see me in a really social setting. Just embraced me, and we had just had really deep conversations, you know, all night. And I don't know if somebody went home or whatever, and then they had racks of clothing for models or whatever, or women or whatever we could change there. I mean, it was just it was just one of those kind of things.

And you would stay and you would have breakfast and then sort of, and then have conversations. And then the partying would start up again.

And then the partying starts up all over again.

Wow. Don't go anywhere. There's more with Beverly Johnson in just a few moments. If you've been listening to this show since the start, you've probably heard us mention hair story. Since then, there's been an incredible outpouring of love for hair story, especially from listeners who never thought they could show off their hair's natural texture. But that's what hair story is all about, embracing your hair and embracing you. Hair story's best selling product is called nuwash. Nuwash cleanses and moisturizers Hair replacing your shampoo and conditioner in one healthy step, Nuwash is a first of its kind cleansing cream. Formulated without the harsh foams and detergents found in traditional shampoos, Nuwash rebalances your scalp's natural oil production and leaves your hair stronger, shinier, and softer. Plus, you can go longer between wash days without getting greasy. Hairstory does hair care differently? Creating sustainable products that are gentle on your hair, your scalp, and the environment? Apart from using hair friendly ingredients, new wash is 100% biodegradable and comes in 100% recyclable packaging. Hairstory is part of 1% for the planet, donating 1% of eight ounce new wash purchases to organizations that support sustainable water initiatives. Save 20% at hairstory.com with this exclusive code for wiser than me listeners.

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Yes.

And you know, it's funny because as I was thinking about that, I was thinking about my own experience, like when I was on Seinfeld. And I mean, this really isn't the same thing. Of course. This is of course on a much smaller scale. But I was the only woman on the show and people would ask me a lot about being the only woman and being this sort of feminist character character and feminist sort of role model in the world of comedy. And I was like, I don't consider myself that necessarily, even though I may be, but I didn't approach it like that. Can you talk about that?

So it's very similar to your situation. You know, you were doing your job, you know, in a job that you loved, and you didn't really understand the environment that you were placed in and what you stood for, for so many women like myself, you know, working at an echelon where women never worked before. And so, for myself, as I tell people, you know, discrimination isn't out loud. You know, they don't go around and say, there's been no black people on the COVID of Vogue. You know, people just don't go around announcing things like that. You know, hey, I'm a racist. That people just don't do that. So I used to kind of hear, like, little whispers or whatever the case may be, but it never occurred to me that there had never been a black woman on the COVID of Vogue and actually being a sixties little girl.

Oh, wait a minute.

Wait a minute.

Can I just interrupt you?

Yes, please. So that when.

When. When Eileen said to you, that's never gonna happen, it didn't occur to you in that moment that she meant because you're a black woman?

No, I. No, she just said it.

Okay, carry on.

Yeah. So. And then you kind of hear whispers and, you know, it's the sixties now. It's the seventies. We had overcome all of that, that you, as a young person, think that, you know, racism is behind us. That's the naive part.

It's over now.

It's over now. So when I was getting all these interviews from right around the world, they would say, how does it feel to be the first black model on the COVID of Vogue magazine? Well, I am. They say, yeah, you are. Do you know what you're doing? And so I was like, holy, right? Wait a minute. I just want to be undercover because there was this guy at Tufts University that nobody. I couldn't get any guys, you know what I mean? And I thought that I could get the guys and party a little and have some fun, you know, this is. This is not what I signed up for and make some money for my family. And so I was kind of, like, taken back, and so that pushed me into a self discovery journey. What's this thing about racism? What is now, really? What is this? And I was mad that there hadn't been a black person on the COVID of Vogue magazine. I was very upset that that even existed.

Yeah, of course. I mean, you must have been furious. And it's not like it's easy to be a model anyway. Right.

Well, the thing is that when you become a model, I mean, like, immediately, like, say, I don't know, the first job was 18 or 19, because I don't really keep up. I knew that the other models were on my heels. Mm hmm. So time. Time is like this when you're a model. You're waiting for that day when the phone doesn't ring.

Oh, God.

It's kind of like an actor you're waiting for when it's gonna be over.

Kinda. Yeah.

It was best thing Eileen Ford ever told me. She said, 99.9% of models leave the business broken. Don't be one of them. So I take things like that to heart.

What'd you do?

I immediately started taking acting classes. I started being a host on television. I mean, I started just, you know, reaching out. Cause I didn't know what I wanted to do. So I did everything I wanted to learn about everything. Cause I didn't really know what was gonna click. Went to Brooklyn college at nights. You know, I started just preparing for that. And so that happens very early on in a model's life. You're expendable, and so you just prepare for it. And also the whole thing about, you know, your weight and you, because what happens is that you have a talent, right? You're a comedian. You have something. I have this. My talent is me, my flesh and, you know, me. Other people play the instrument or they're writers or they, whatever. Our talent is us, physically. Us. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

That must be a struggle, because a lot of weight is put on the physical exterior. The exterior, yeah. Have you had to work hard in your life to validate yourself beyond your exterior? I mean, how could you not, to a certain extent, I mean, find your self worth beyond your beauty?

No, I always had that.

You always had it.

I always had my self worth, and I I knew how to control it in a sense that, like I tell young, I said, why don't you let me tell the person? You know, I'd be the big sister. Let me, let me. Let me fight your battles right here. I don't want you to go out on a limb on that one. You know, photographer did something.

Have you done that for people?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. The young models. Oh, for sure.

What does that mean? Like, you call an agent or you call a such and such for them.

Yeah. And I said, this photographer is doing this and that and the other. And, you know, you got it. You got to watch out for this guy. But if they did it, they'd be blackballed.

Even today. This is true.

Even today.

What the hell? Beauty is tricky, is it not?

It's tricky, but, but it's power.

That's right. And when you walk into a room, I hope you don't mind my asking this. Are you assuming everyone's going to look at you when you walk in a room?

I make everyone look at me.

Uh huh. You know, I think from, you know, from my point of view, just, I mean, of course, looks are a part of being an actor, but in, in the aspect of the business that I'm involved with, well, first of all, it's hard to age for sure. There's no getting around it. You know, I look at myself today in whatever the latest thing I did versus ten years ago, and to see that change on camera is cuckoo bananas, and you really have to work hard to reconcile it. But, I mean, what's the alternative, not doing it? I don't think so. I mean, I consider myself a very driven person. I can tell that you are a very driven person. Are you still modeling?

Yes, I've done about 20 covers in the last few years. Oh, my gosh. But the whole thing about beauty and aging, maybe what's a difference for me is that it's my business. Right. It's my business. Yeah. So I love finding out what's a new product. I love finding out what's the new machine that they have, the new laser that's going to do this and that and, you know, all that stuff fascinating. Fascinates me because that's the business that I'm in.

Right. What's your take on plastic surgery?

I love plastic surgery. Black people, we don't crack, but we do keloid. So you guys got to run up on us over there, too.

So you mean as in keloid scars? Is that what you're talking about?

Yes. Yes. We can't cut ourselves because there's going to be a scar. Oh. So if you do, you have to do it. I'm trying to figure that part out also. Whoever figures that out, boy, they're going to be making a lot of money.

Well, it might be you, but anyways.

I love all that. I love, I love being able to live a long, healthy, beautiful life the way you want to live it. You know, people like gray hair and whatever. And, you know, some people really do, they treasure the sign of honor, badge of honor, to have wrinkles. I think that's great, but I think there's also people that want to look a certain way, and I think that's great, too.

And so then when you're, like, on a set and you're doing a modeling gig, or maybe you're doing a Runway and they're younger women, there is that, like, do you have to do a mind game on yourself to sort of keep yourself feeling, I don't know what, confident in those moments?

No, because you do.

Not really, Beverly.

Not at all. You know why? Because I did fashion week a couple of years ago or two years ago, and, you know, and believe me, I had to train and everything to get ready to walk in seven inch heels. You just don't go out there and start walking around.

Right.

But I'm Beverly Johnson. I show up as Beverly Johnson.

Yeah, I hear that.

Nobody can touch that. Nobody can touch that.

I like that. I like that a lot. I remember when I was on doing my show veep, and there was this moment when we were on set and I realized, oh, my God, I'm the oldest person on this fucking show. It hadn't even occurred to me. And on the one hand, I'm like, oh, I'm the oldest person because I'm very used to being sort of the youngest person in a way. But then on the other hand, there's this feeling like, yeah, I'm the oldest person I know the most here. Yes. And so there's a pride of ownership of that that is valid and useful. Right?

Yes. And people are coming over to you and saying, oh, I really admire your work and all that you've done, and you've got to.

Well, they better come over to me. Exactly right.

They better bow down.

Yeah, right. Exactly. We have to take a really quick break. My conversation with Beverly Johnson continues in just a bit. Say hello to your in real life makeup filter in a bottle, covergirl's simply ageless skin perfector essence. Ever found a beauty product that instantly becomes a staple in your morning routine? That's what happens when you try Covergirl's skin perfector essence, delivering a flawless makeup look that feels as natural as your own skin. Suddenly, your daily makeup routine will feel incomplete without it. Thanks to Covergirl's innovative micro droplet technology, tiny capsules of pigment burst upon application, blending so seamlessly that it feels like a second skin rather than a layer of makeup. Plus, it's infused with 0.5% bakuchi oil. That's a natural retinol alternative, and it offers a gentler way to achieve that radiant glow. When it comes to hydration, the skin perfector essence has it covered with a formula that boasts a 71% water content, ensuring up to 24 hours hydration. It leaves skin looking refreshed, dewy and glowing no matter what. And get a load of this. Covergirl offers this revolutionary formula in eight shades so you can find what works for you. And as all good cosmetics should be, it's clean, vegan, and cruelty free.

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You support women in a multitude of ways, and I include in that that you came forward in 2014. You came forward with your experience with Bill Cosby. You've said you did this because you wanted to add credibility to the women who had already spoken out about him. Was this an easy decision to make or did you wring your hands or.

Oh my God, the Vogue cover was the defining moment in my life where I became a face. Yes, coming out about Bill Cosby was the other defining moment in my life where I used my voice. I became a voice. And it was very difficult. I can't even tell I'm still suffering, but it was very difficult.

Why are you suffering still?

This is something that, the magnitude of it, because of who he was and who he was to the black world. And I knew it was going to be polarizing. I knew it. I knew exactly what it was going to be like. I thought, you know, I knew it. But I could not not express myself. I could not let these women that were telling their stories be called a bunch of liars. And everything when I knew they were telling the truth, because it happened to me. And not only that, Julia, I wasn't raped. I got away without the rape part. He just drugged me. By the grace of God.

I know. By the grace of God. But let me tell you something. That is what's so incredible about this story, about your story and who you are.

Well, basically, I called him a bunch of names and he was shocked.

Yeah, but that's a way of fighting. You paralyzed him and kept him from physically attacking you, although he'd already attacked you by giving you that horrible drug.

Right.

But anyway, I want to say a few things. Number one, thank you for speaking out and using your voice. And I'm sorry if it's still giving you anxiety of any kind. But as a woman, I say thank you because that was incredibly. It was critical that you did it. And that someone of your stature did it is remarkable. And so I stand in awe of you. I applaud you for that. Thank you. And I thank you for it. And while understanding how difficult that was, particularly because he was such a figure in the african american community and in our country, I mean, to everyone, you.

Know, it was tough, but it was great. I do it again. And it was really wonderful to now be able to, you know, women come to me and say, you know, I had a me too moment, you know, because we never talked to each other. You know, Janice Dickinson and I were like this. We went all over the world together. We never mentioned it to each other. Do you think I would have went over there to that man's house if somebody had told me, don't go to that man's house, girl. I would never have gone. Nobody said anything so important. We've got a long way to go, but we've come a long way.

Oh, yeah, for sure. You know, your advocacy is really a common thread throughout your life. Standing up for other models in the fashion industry, you know, speaking out against sexual harassers. I know you've also been a big advocate for women's health, in particular by sharing your own story with menopause. Can you talk about that, Beverly? Because I'm not sure everybody knows that story. I think it's really worth having a conversation about that throughout my career, you know, being interviewed.

If you ask me how I am, I'm going to tell you. So don't ask me how I am, because I'm going to tell you how I am. And good.

I want to hear it.

Whether it was about depression, addiction, or whatever, I've always spoken out about things. And so I had this near death experience through menopause, in a sense that, you know, I had to have an emergency operation to have hysterectomy. And all this. And all these things happened.

You were young. You were, like, 47.

Yes, yes. And the doctors didn't tell you. They were like, oh, yeah, that's right. You're in full blown menopause. Well, thanks for telling me, you know.

Well, now, wait a minute. They took, they gave you a hysterectomy, and in advance of that, they didn't tell you this is going to catapult you into menopause?

No.

Nobody gave you that information?

No.

God.

Yeah. So the whole thing was. It was my near death experience. Almost died. Right. So during the history. Because why?

Because why?

Because I went into cab. My hysterectomy, I didn't think I had to tell anybody or whatever. It's like a normal operation that women get whatever. It was really played down. So it was one old boyfriend, and he's the only one that shows up at the hospital, and I'm going, oh, my God. Something, you know, I'm in a lot of pain. And the nurses are going, like, she's not in any pain. You know, you don't have any pain once you have. And sure enough, I was bleeding, internally bleeding, and they called the doctor in at midnight, and I had passed out. I saw my father. My father had passed away. I saw my father walking towards me really fast. And I'm happy to see my father. And he's going like this. He's telling me to go back. I think he's, like, waving, but I see his expression. He's mad. And I stop, and I wake up. I was. And they were, like, rushing me into the operating room.

Whoa. That is nuts.

It's gave me chills right now.

That is a nutty story. That is crazy. He didn't want you to come to the other side yet.

I didn't want you to come to the other side, Beverly. But that's why I started to speak out about it. I talked to everybody about it, and they're like, too much information. I remember my daughter, like, okay, too much information. I said, no, it's not enough information. So if I get on, you know, the open Winfrey network, I would go, how are you doing? Well, I just had a hysterectomy. She'd be like, whoa, we weren't going down that topic, but I guess we're here now. It just was something that I. That's what I did I spread what I knew and my experiences? And you deal with it basically the rest of your life, right?

I mean, I'm in menopause as well. And, you know, I'm so struck with the obvious reality that women's health as a field of medicine is really focused on fertile women. And once you hit perimenopause or you're postmenopausal, there is, there's not a lot of information out there and you have to work hard to get the information. And also, women, women aren't talking enough, in my view, to each other about the very effects of menopause, you know, I mean, can I just say, where are the conversations about vaginal dryness? Where are those conversations? And that's a huge issue.

Huge, huge, great product for that. But anyways, what is the product? I would have to get up and go get it in the other room.

Well, now wait a minute. Can we have, if somebody else is sitting in your house, because can they get it and bring it in and you can tell us about it? I mean, not that we're doing an ad for a product, but I'm curious to know.

I would get up and go get it for you in a second, Aurora. But anyways, I was on the Tamron hall show and it was just really great. And the women in the audience and everybody was like applauding and whatever, because you have to advocate for yourself, but you also need an advocate to go with you when you're going to the doctor.

No doubt, no doubt, yes. Particularly if there's a crisis, you always have to have somebody with you, a partner, a best friend, a sister, a brother, whatever, somebody, because you can't necessarily advocate for yourself when you're in crisis.

Right, exactly, exactly.

Yeah.

And then the whole thing with the, with the hormones that you're getting, sometimes it can cause cancer in women. Breast cancer in women. So it's a whole, it's really something that has to be spoken about and also tailored to you. Do you have that breast cancer? I mean, it's so much that we have to do to take care of ourselves. That's right. Knowledge that we need to gain and have in exchange. And this is a great conversation we're having about menopause.

Right. And I think that we have to have these conversations frequently just to make it less taboo, less sort of secret. You know, it's all happening down there. Nobody talk about it. And, you know, it's one thing if you're having a baby, it's another thing if, if you're on the other side of having babies, right?

Yes, even the side of having babies. There's so many women that are dying through childbirth, particularly black women today.

Now, I was thinking of that when the nurses were saying to you, oh, no, she's fine. She's fine because they're right. I mean, in the medical community, it seems like black women are simply not listened to. And as a result, you know, I.

Could have died if it wasn't for this old boyfriend, Walter. Thank you, Walter, coming to visit me. And then he would. I heard him out there yelling at the nurse, no, she is hurting. And he saved my life.

Wow. You have a lot to be thankful for there.

I do.

Yeah. In getting ready for this conversation with you, I learned that New York just passed legislation that requires cosmetology schools to include education about textured hair and so on in their curriculum. Laws like this are just being passed now. And, I mean, it's the. Can't even begin to imagine what that was like for you in the seventies.

Yes. My mentor, Naomi Sims, she was another.

Model at the time, right?

Yes, she was a model at the time. She was really the most gorgeous woman. Everything she did, I did. She wore her hair pulled back. I wore my hair pulled back. She took baby oil, mixed it with a little iodine for a foundation. I took iodine and baby oil and put it on for a foundation. She did a wig company. I did a wig company. And she was so gracious to me. I'll never forget the first day she saw me was at the Halston show, because I wanted to Runway shows. Models like us did not do Runway shows. That was like something in a whole nother.

When you say like us, you mean black? Is that what you mean?

I mean, like, photogenic, superstar models did not walk the Runway. That was. That was a whole other.

That was frowned upon very well.

It was just not frowned upon. They were the girls that were. They called them fit models, you know, in their. Working with the designers and everything. But I wanted to meet the designers. That's why I wanted to do Runway shows. And my agent was like, you can't do a Runway show. You're a cover girl. Yeah, no, but I want to go. I want to. I want to meet the designers. That's where I met Naomi Sims. And she came over to me, said, congratulations on everything that you're doing, your pictures and glamor. And then she invited me to her home, and I said, that's how I'm going to be with every new model that comes up after me.

You're going to pay it forward.

Yeah.

Oh, that's so beautiful. Yeah, that's beautiful. It's funny. I'm going to tell a story on myself that I'm kind of ashamed of, but it speaks to what we were discussing earlier. So when I was working on Veep and wonderful Sufi Bradshaw was one of our cast members, and they had to have a person come in to do her hair and makeup, a black person come in to do her hair and makeup who was familiar with doing a black woman's hair and makeup. And I was so stupid and naive that it hadn't occurred to me that hair and makeup people didn't know how to do everybody's hair and makeup. And I'm glad that my eyes were open to that, although I'm embarrassed that my eyes were open to that so late in my career that this was news to me.

It's understandable. I mean, I remember, you know, working for glamor, and one of the makeup artists, I say, is he stoned or whatever? You know, he was all in black, and he was shaking, he was sweating. And I was like, I went over to the editor and I was like, hey, this guy is stone. I don't want him with a black pencil in my eye.

She said, I know.

She said, I know. But she didn't say anything.

I know.

I said, what can we do? I said, well, you're going to have to call somebody else. She says, but who could we call? Everybody's busy. I said, well, I happen to know this makeup artist. You think they're free right now? I said, I think they might be free. And she said, would you call them and I'll get rid of him and call. So the makeup artist comes down. His name is Joey Mills. He's no longer with us. Joey came in there, I'm here. I said, joey, gotta tone it down. You gotta tone.

I love people in hair and makeup.

Yeah, tone it way. And he went on to do makeup for white, black and everyone. But he was one of the first black makeup artists to get into the magazine world. But that's how you had to get them in.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

You know, your life is just, well, it's just extraordinary because it's like advocacy is in the DNA of how you live your life. It's just baked in. And your daughter, she's worked in the modeling industry, too, right?

Well, so my daughter is quick. It's a quick story. And, you know, she had a wonderful life and nannies and blah, blah, blah. And she was really smart, and she graduated two years early from high school. So she went to Santa Monica College, then she went to UCLA, and then she came home and said, I'm going to. I want to be a model. And Talania and I, we want to go to New York.

Now.

They're about 17 and a half years old. I'm going to. By yourself? She said, by myself, mom, you have to let us do this and this. And of course, I had it all connected. So they went to model, and they were getting really skinny, and we called them lollipop heads, where your head's really big and your body. And I'm, like, worried. And then all of a sudden, of course, I'm doing a show, and she calls me up, mom, guess what? I'm like, you're pregnant. She says, why do you always lead with that, mom? I thought, well, what? She says, I'm going to be a plus size model. I said, what's a plus size model? She says, I'm never going to let anybody tell me how I should look ever again.

Oh, my God.

And I was like, wow, look at this strength.

Where does that come from? The apple does not fall far from the tree here.

Well, I was like, what did I do? Is she rebelling that she wanted to be? Is this. I mean, you know me. I get into. It's all about me. You know, what did I do to her that she and I realized? So she was part of the top ten plus size models with Ashley Graham and those women in the industry. I was so proud of her. She changed my whole life on my own body perspective.

Oh, I see. That's fascinating.

She saved me.

She opened up your mind to acceptance.

Of who I am and my dysmorphia. My dysmorphia, yes. And all because.

I know that's right. Because you struggled with dealing with getting too skinny. Still to this day.

Still to this day. Still to this day, we didn't drink water because we thought it was fattening. Oh, wow. Water. That's how sick we were.

Wow.

That's one of the occupational hazards of being a model. That's right.

So that's why I ask. I mean, but you. But look, she's found a way to get into it without that bullshit attached to it, right?

She found a way to expand not only what I did for black people globally, she did for people with normal weight in the industry globally. She broke her own barriers. So I'm so proud of her. I mean, I'm like, you know, she's my shiro. She really is.

Yeah, she really is. And she should be. Yes. I want to ask you a couple other quick questions. I'm going to let you go because you've been so generous with your time. Is there something you go back and tell yourself when you were 21?

Don't marry him. That's good advice. That's good advice.

Is there something that you wish you'd spent less time on, Beverly, in your life? Looking back, no.

But what I would spend more time on would have been my. My family, you know, my sisters, my brothers and my, you know, and my friends, because I was basically gone.

Mm hmm.

About 1015 years.

Well, look, it sounds like you're making up for it now.

Yeah, I am. I'm an introvert. I want to be home right now. This is. This is my. This is where heaven for me. I'm being home, and I'm an introvert. And, you know, so when I go out, I'm going out. Okay. I'm going out for a reason.

Uh huh. But now, wait a minute. All the time, like, pretend you're just. You're gonna go the grocery store, or you're gonna get in your car and, I don't know, drive to Pilates class. I don't know, whatever you do. Do you. Are you aware of your beauty and how you present yourself in those moments?

I'm just curious. Yeah, absolutely. Because otherwise, stay home. You know, I'm the theory of. Because if you go out like that, somebody's going to recognize you and you look in a mess, you know? So stay home.

I think you need to move into my house and remind me of this. You should see what I look like when I go. This is me dressed up talking to.

You right now, by the way, for.

Our listeners, I'm just wearing a t shirt with stripes on it. That was my dress up, and I.

Had on a sweatshirt because I wanted to look cool like my daughter, my granddaughter do around the house. And then it was hot. I said, look, let me just go get the Beverly Johnson costume out and put it on, just, you know, so I can talk about myself.

What's the Beverly Johnson costume?

It's makeup and this silk. This silk shirt.

Oh, I see. Got it. Well, I'm wearing the Julia Louis Dreyfus costume striped shirt, and I put some mascara on.

You look pretty. You look really pretty.

Thank you very much.

And I was admiring your glasses, and I love the little heart.

Oh, yeah. Thank you. My husband gave me that. Isn't that pretty? Yeah, it's a locket.

Yeah.

Thank you very much.

Lovely.

Thank you. Can I just. I'm going to completely flip this switch and ask you, what's the vaginal dryness gel that you got before.

I don't even. I don't even know. Should I run and go get it for a minute? Yeah.

I'm going to wait right here.

Oh, my God. It's not a. Oh, my God.

All right, well, whatever the hell it is, just go get it, okay.

It is not a hormone, and I saw it on instagram.

Oh, my God. I know. I use that.

You don't like this?

I do like it. I thought you had another thing that was good. That's the reverie product.

Those who love it.

Yeah. Hyaluronic acid.

Yes.

Guys, we have come full circle.

We sure have.

What a pleasure. Thank you for talking with me today and taking so much of your precious time.

Thank you so much.

What a blessing to have met you and spent this time with you.

I think this is great. Thank you so much, Julia. I appreciate you.

Wow. How about that Beverly Johnson? She really is something else. My God, I can't wait to tell my mom all about our conversation. Let's get her on Zoom. Hi, mommy. Hi, honey.

How are you?

I'm good. I just talked to Beverly Johnson, the wonderful model. Oh, wow. Oh, wow.

Well.

Well, here we go. Here are the headlines. She was incredibly open and candid about her life, and I was asking her about being a model and being beautiful, and she said to me, beauty is power, which I thought was a very honest and remarkable thing to say. So now, I wanted to ask you, mom, did you ever model a little.

Bit on 7th Avenue? When I first got to New York?

Yeah. You're kidding. Yeah. What do you mean? On 7th Avenue? What does that mean?

Well, you know, the 7th Avenue models, it was a sort of a low grade kind of model. What they did was they're working out a design, so they would work it out right on your body, and then they would move around and stuff like that. So I did that for maybe three times.

I see what you mean. And so did you think of yourself as a beautiful person? Did you know you were beautiful? Let's put it that way.

No, I did not. But I could tell that my looks made a difference when I was someplace.

Oh, like what?

Well, you would notice I got looks, and I would notice that I got a sort of attention before I'd said anything. You know, before.

Right.

That I was noted. I felt I was noted, but I did not have that kind of beauty that was, you know, pristine and so forth. But I never could quite appreciate it. When I look at my pictures now, when I see myself when I was younger and I think to myself, I didn't ever know I looked that way.

But maybe that's the thing about getting older, because I certainly feel that way about myself. Like, if I see myself from 25 years ago and I'm like, oh, my God, I had no idea that I was so hard on myself.

Yes, right.

And I didn't realize I shouldn't have been.

You know, that is very interesting because I felt so responsible for myself somehow, and I couldn't appreciate myself. And I think that that's absolutely true, that when you get older, all of a sudden you begin to let that stuff go. But. And I. Yes, I would give anything if I could have just taken joy in. And sometimes I did, by the way, when I got dressed up and I felt terrific, you know, and you go out and you just feel like, okay, I've got the world. And I had moments like that.

I remember when you and dad, this is. I'm actually talking about my stepdad because I was at their wedding. I was the flower girl. And when I was four and they got married, and my mom had an incredible dress. I loved that dress. Did you love it, mommy? That dress?

I loved that dress.

I loved it. It was green, sort of, I'm going to say a satin with embroidered white flowers on it. And I remember thinking that that dress was very beautiful. I also loved my dress that day.

I loved the dress that day.

Oh, my God.

My dress was very good. It was a sort of a white dress with, like a little eyelet edge or something on it, right? Yeah. And I was carrying pink roses, I believe, and my mom was carrying red roses, and I decided to have a shit fit because I didn't like my flowers. I only liked her flowers.

And so I gave you one of the red roses and then you pink roses to put in our bouquet. So we had, you know, we moved that one out.

It was a bit of a compromise. And I'm still. I'm not going to lie. A bit bitter. And I wish that I could have had the whole bouquet for myself.

And I also. Dare we get into the talk of the gloves?

Sure.

But I had in mind that you were going to wear these little white lace gloves, and I thought the wedding couldn't go on, you know, without them. And so you said you weren't going to wear them, and I said, well, then there's no wedding I'm so sad about. And your step granddad came up and he was hearing us over this issue. And so he said, I've got an idea, girls. He said, how about if I take the gloves and I put them in my breast pocket? And then if you need them, you'll know where they are, but I'll just keep them safe. So he just took care of the whole situation.

Amazing. Amazing grandparenting moment on his part. Amazing.

And then the gloves now were said to my niece. Your niece?

Yes.

And that she has them for her own.

Well, actually, I'm going to burst your bubble, mom. She doesn't want them either. And she gave them back to me.

Oh, yeah.

So they're sitting in my, in my desk and. But still yet to be worn by any child. That's just not.

Maybe George. If he has any trouble with his.

Teeth, that's our dog. For those who are listening, George, I might put them on. George. Mommy. Well, I think we done did it.

Okay, lovey.

Okay, love you.

Love you.

Bye. There's more wiser than me with lemonade Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content from each episode of the show. Subscribe now in Apple Podcasts. Make sure you're following wiser than me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok Wiserthanme and we're on Facebookiserthanmepodcast. Wiserthan Me is a production of lemonade media created in and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. This show is produced by Chrissy Peace, Jamila Zara Williams, Alex Mcoan, and Oja Lopez. Brad hall is a consulting producer. Rachel Neal is vp of new content and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer, and me. The show is mixed by Jonny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Farber, and our music was written by Henry hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow wiser than me wherever you get your podcasts. And if there's a wise old lady in your life, listen up. This episode of wiser than me is brought to you by Makers Mark. Makers Mark makes their bourbon carefully, so please enjoy it that way.

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