Brené on Ask Me Anything, Part 1 of 2
Unlocking Us with Brené Brown

Hi, everybody. I'm Renee Brown, and this is unlocking us. And this is part one of our two part AMAA. Ask me anything special.

So. Oh my God. We said ask me anything and and y'all asked us everything and anything. We received over 400 messages. And I am so sorry for those. Some folks who live outside of the U.S. had no problem leaving a message. Some folks really struggled to do it. So when we do it again, we'll make sure that we have an easier way for you to leave. Your question.

I really thought that. Yea, we're going to leave me. Kind of like fun questions, but no, there's no there are a couple of lighthearted fun questions and they're not even that lighthearted and fun. Mostly you just came with really hard, complex, layered questions. And some of them I don't have the expertise to answer. You really helped us lay out kind of topics we want to cover. We're finding the right people to talk to about them, some of them.

I can answer partly. I can pull one question out of like maybe three or four questions that are embedded in in one message. So what we're gonna do is divide this up into two podcasts, one this week and then one later on, just because there are so many questions. And I think because we put out the call for questions for the AMAA at the end of the July first podcast on Chaiman Accountability, a lot of the questions are about shame and.

You guessed it accountability. So we'll divide it up and we'll jump right in. So we're going to listen to think four or five today and we'll do a podcast for the second set of questions.

Again, appreciate all those softball lobs. No, there were none. None. All really hard questions, but I appreciate the critical thinking. I really do. I'm so grateful for this. Unlocking s community for people leaning in to.

Real stuff, like hard, real stuff. I'm here for it.

And the first person we're gonna hear from is Jacob. OK, here we are. AMAA part one.

My name is Jacob and I'm from Seattle, Washington. Hibernates. This might be too political a question, but I'm not asking it anyway. So the rise of quote unquote fake news has created the strange situation where I feel like people feel empowered to choose what is and isn't true for them. And it seems like a lot of people automatically just believe whatever it is that makes them feel good and they disbelieve whatever it is that goes against the grain that the narrative or what makes them not feel good.

And this seems like an issue with emotional regulation, more than an issue of being educated. But I do still think it's an issue with critical thinking. So given kind of how your work at things is really focused on helping people with emotional regulation, I'm kind of just wondering, like, how do you think your work could actually be used in the fight against disinformation?

What's interesting to me about Jacob's question is the answer to it is actually. Not controversial, but really there's a lot of conflict about the answer. You know, why are we vulnerable to propaganda is a way, I guess, to phrase it. That would be in line with how some cognitive psychologists, people who are really studying this would talk about it. They would talk about the vulnerability and the susceptibility to misinformation. So there seems to be two camps in the research world.

One camp says people. Are susceptible because it's kind of confirmation bias. They want information that prove their political opinions. They don't think critically. They just want confirmation of their own beliefs. So there's there's.

That camp looking for confirmation of their political righteousness.

And then the other camp of researchers would say that it's a lack of intellectual curiosity or a lack of skill of critical thinking. So it's not that people are looking for confirmation of their beliefs, but they don't know how to challenge what they read or they're not willing to challenge what they read because it takes a lot of effort.

When I think about Jacob's question in the frame of my research, I have a different perspective that maybe, I don't know, maybe pulls on both the lack of intellectual inquiry or critical thinking and the confirmation bias.

Just wanting to confirm what you already believe, which is in heightened times. Again, a reminder for those of you who haven't listened to another podcast where I've mentioned this, but I coincidentally started my research six months before 9/11. And so I've been. Watching how. Over the last 20 years, how fear has changed us, how something that didn't exist in some ways now is a huge driver, you know, at least for majority population, for, you know, for white middle class, straight population that never, never was accustomed to living with a constant layer of terror and film over our lives.

Now, of course, if you are a black person or you are an immigrant or you are Muslim or you are in this country and our beliefs and our actions that are perpetuated by those beliefs cause you to live in terror, which we're seeing we're seeing that clearly many people for the first time. 9/11 was not. A new feeling. And in fact, I'll just tell you, this is getting off your thing, Jake. But it's it's it's related.

I was teaching in a graduate college of Social Work when 9/11 happened, and we had to have very, very difficult conversations about race and violence and police brutality and living in fear. You know, on nine 12, basically, because that experience of living in fear was so new to some people. And so. Consistently traumatic for other people who not only lived in that fear, but were raised by parents who were raised by parents, who were raised by parents who raised by parents, were raised by parents who lived in that fear and taught around the collective trauma.

And you know what they call the talk, the talk that you have to give your children when their existence, because of the color of their skin, their faith beliefs, makes them unsafe. And so what I would say is after 9/11, there was a new level of collective trauma. And one thing that I saw. Which made things even more dangerous for people who were not in the majority culture of white, straight, Christian middle class.

Was this phenomenon and I write about it a little bit and daring greatly of when people are afraid. If you can. Give them someone to blame for their fear. And you can. Sell them. The snake oil of certainty in times of deep vulnerability and uncertainty. They will. We will. Consume and believe almost anything you tell us. We are you know, it's so funny if there's if all these questions had one thing in common, from white supremacy to Jacob's question about fake news, we don't know how to be in pain and uncertainty.

We don't know how to be. Productive in our vulnerability. And the many ways that we tap out of our pain and our fear. Is. Literally having our knee on the throat of other people. And so when I think about. My own. You know, I'm a I'm a I'm a critical thinker for a living. And, you know, trained to think critically, trained to pull apart every argument, including the ones I love and the ones that make me feel better and the ones I want to wrap around me like a blanket.

When I'm in enough fear and I'm in enough scarcity. I will go down the my own version of fake news, like if I hear something, the news like this blood type. You know, lessen your chance of kova it. Or if you take this fight, I'm in. I'm like, Steve. Steve, I'll get this box of like blood testing equipment and supplementaries. Is it what's going on? That I heard this news story and he said VirnetX.

Step back and I get it and spit step back for a minute. So. We're all susceptible to information that delivers us from pain. And any news or information or proclamation or snake oil even that delivers us from uncertainty, fear, pain, shame.

Our smarts are going to be. Overridden by the human need to tap out of that.

And so I think that's why when you listen to a lot of cable news, when you dissect it and you really listen to it, every news story has a blaming component. So. From innocuous things that have nothing to do with people's choices sometimes. But, you know, everything has. Here's what's happening. Here's why you should be afraid.

And here's to blame and that scarcity culture. And we're so deep in scarcity culture only shit. I am in such deep scarcity, culture around covet, but scarcity culture I write this in daring greatly is, you know, you're in a scarcity culture. When the conversation really hinges on what should we be terrified or afraid of right now and whose fault is it? And so in scarcity culture, I make up that there's a huge correlation between fear and scarcity and pain and.

Belief of propaganda. So but I'll dig in more well, we'll maybe we'll bring in some of the folks who are studying it and ask them questions. That's one the reasons I love this AMAA. So thank you, Jacob, for your question. OK. Let's listen to this question from Chuck.

Hello. My name is Chuck and I'm from League City. First off, VirnetX, do you play pickleball? OK, my second question is how superexcited about something? Couple of days ago, it didn't work out. And so I was experiencing disappointment. I pride myself on being emotionally. Sober, so I thought I was feeling it. But six hours later, as I was still feeling it, I missed some connections with some people because they asked me out.

Well, I didn't want to answer them because I was feeling my disappointment. Well, the next day I was kind of reviewing my day and I was actually in, I believe, self-pity pretty quickly after. But anyway, here's my question. God, I hope this makes sense. Can you tell me the difference between the feeling of disappointment and self-pity? I think that's my question and I hope it makes sense. Thank you very, very I love you.

OK. So Chuck has a two parter. The first part, way easier than the second part. So the first part, do I play pickleball?

Brand new obsession. I mean, complete obsession. I'll tell you why. We are big time Foursquare players. We will play Foursquare Square, just the four of us. You know, for 10 years we played Foursquare. Maybe longer than that. So much so that I bought a chalk outline thing that like when you make a field for sports, you know, you push that thing and chalk comes out the bottom of it in a straight line. We had one.

I thought it was temporary, but I made a foursquare caught in our street and it was permanent. And so it was there for years. It was great for us. I'm sure our neighbors thought it was iffy.

But I was like, hey, this is our Zahr country club, baby, right here, Foursquare. And we're huge Foursquare players.

And we have like a whole set of rules, you know, no cherry bombs, no chicken feet, no snake eyes, rookie cookie only ones. Meaning if you've never played, you get one round where everyone's taking it easy. But then after that, you're on your own. But we would the four of us would play square Foursquare, me, Steve, Allen and Charlie. And by our second game, there'd be a line of ten kids and some adults that are like we want in the game.

So first person now the next person would come in. So I'm also a huge tennis player and I love badminton. So when I first at my friend Lauren told me about pickleball. And so I looked it up, of course, as all people would, because it involves a ball, which means I'm interested in it. And pickleball is like badminton meets tennis meets the most important sport possibly in my life. Ping pong. I have a ping pong table at work.

I have a ping pong table at home that's in like my living room. I take ping pong. I couldn't write a book without ping pong. So new obsession. I'll let you know how it goes. Check. But I'm. I'm so excited. Second question, a little bit tougher. The difference between the feelings of disappointment and self-pity. So for this one, I had to think a little bit about what is self-pity? What is disappointment? To figure out how they're different.

And I went to Rhonda, who's our director of research. And right now we're doing this. I mean, like the most GI enormous ass. That's a technical research measurement term, ginormous ass literature review on all these emotions and cognitions and how they work and what the differences and how they're the same.

So if you look at the research on self-pity. Man, we do not like pity. So I'm looking at research. Researcher Geller says that being accused of self pity is one of the worst criticisms we can receive. This is from a 2006 study because it implies that the person's not willing to or making attempts to improve their current situation. Gerda's states that self pity is associated with whining and victimization. Most people experiencing difficulty, even if they wish to be helped, loathe to be pitied.

Stober, another researcher, points out that self-pity is often used as a bid for attention, empathy or help, and calls it a strategy doomed to fail because people who indulge in self-pity ultimately tend to be socially rejected. So I think there is a real belief among researchers who study pity that self-pity is an ineffective coping strategy. It seems to higher levels of self-pity seem to be positively correlated or associated with internalized anger, emotional loneliness, a belief that life is controlled by chance.

It really seems to be not correlated with a sense of agency that I can handle things. I think. When I was talking to Ronda about it and we were trying to figure out. You know, we're careful when we talk about differences, because as researchers, you know, we want to see the data before we talk about a difference. So here, here's what my research gut says. Disappointment is about something specific. I'm disappointed that I didn't get the promotion.

I'm disappointed that. This did not work out where self-pity is more of a global assessment, even if it starts with something specific, it's more of a global assessment in AA rooms. We often hear something that we associate with kind of being in the throes of addiction or what we would call terminal uniqueness. Like my life, my experience, everything about me is very unique, very unique, which there are unique things about us, of course.

But it when it comes to some things, we have a lot more in common than we don't. But this idea of disappointments about something specific, where self pity becomes a global assessment of circumstances like I can't catch a break. Nothing ever goes my way. I think we would affiliate self pity with the poor Mieze. I also think that there's a perception that self pity can be manipulative. And this is interesting because now we're getting into less research, got more research, research.

So one of the things that we studied when we were studying shame is this idea of empathy versus sympathy. Empathy is, I feel with you. While I may not have had that experience, I can connect to the emotion that you're feeling based on that experience. So while may I, I may not know what it's like to get fired. I know grief and rage and fear. I know the emotions that underpin the experience and that time connecting to you around this.

And so when were in disappointment?

I think we look for empathy. I think we look for. I just had something really disappointing happen, this true story. I just had something the last week really disappointing happen.

And I was feeling everything from pissed off to grief to maybe not shame, but. Probably embarrassment that I've gotten my hopes up and that I was disappointed when, you know, I can go into that thing where I should have known better than to get my hopes up, but I'm a get my hopes up kind of person. And I remember just texting Steve like a pest. Five seconds later, I'm so sad. Five seconds later, no more pest.

And his response was empathy. Like, I get it. I'm on Planetree Pest, too. And we compare kind of experiences where we're looking to make a bid for empathy with experiences where we're sympathy's seeking, where I would say to Steve Cottam, I'm past and I'm sad and I'm just I'm disappointed and I can't believe it. Nothing, you know, nothing ever falls away. I want it to. And then Steve would say, God, I get it.

I'm you know, I really I I'm. I'm so sorry. And I know you will. And you know what? You didn't get it. You don't get it. No one knows how I feel that now we're moving in to sympathy seeking. Now, I don't want empathy and connection. I want sympathy and validation that every body has it better than me and no one gets it.

And let me tell you now, when I first started studying shame, I'm really hoarse. It's not because I don't sound like this, because I'm trying to sound like Suzanne Pleshette. For those of you all in the age range to know who she is. Sexy voice. Suzanne Pleshette. Nor have I been smoking a pack of cigarettes a day since covered. But I've been fantasizing. Maybe this is what happens when you just fantasize about smoking a pack of cigarettes a day.

I'm just kind of hoarse today, but so that's one to give you a caveat. But. When I started first started researching shame, I interviewed a lot of mental health professionals. And when I would talk about sympathy seeking these well trained empathy givers holders of space, nothing got these people pissed off as much as this idea of sympathy speaking, seeking. They like, oh, my God, the sympathy seeking. Like, if you're in group and you've got someone that sympathy seeking, everyone gets pissed, stop and search rolling their eyes.

Then you have to really manage the room and and it's so hard. Or if you've got a client who's a sympathy seeker, it's just so manipulative. And it you know, there's no winning, there's no helping and, you know, is like caught off guard by the reaction people had to sympathy seeking.

But I feel the same way because when someone tells you something really hard and then you try to be empathic, when you try to show compassion and their responses, you don't get it. You could never get it. No one has it as bad as me. You're like, yeah, you're right. I'm out. And it's interesting because in group, when we wrote a curriculum based on shame, resilience. I was co facilitating a group with a clinician, a therapist, because, again, I'm a researcher.

I have my master's degree in social work and my PHC. But I am not a clinician. So I'm. I was co facilitating a psycho educational group with a clinician who's masterful clinician. And I saw her do this thing around sympathy's seeking, which was so interesting because someone in the group said and this was hard. This was this was a group. Domestic violence, sexual assault. We were doing this at the Houston Area Women's Center. This was a group of incest survivors, very tough.

One of the women in the group said no one gets it. No one understands me. Everyone's got it worse and everyone's got it better than me, you know, and it started stacking the list of things and that she was up against.

And I masterfully watched this clinician who.

Is a good friend and just a bad ass say this loving accountability. I hear what you're saying that no one can understand. What I'm experiencing is a group of people who want to understand a group of people who want to be with you in it. So would you be willing to help us be in it with you? It was so interesting because what we found in the research is that sympathy's seeking is very related to shame. When we're in shame, what do we feel alone?

So when we're sympathy's seeking, what do we feel like? It's just me. I thought it was just me. So as she started unpacking all these things that she was ashamed of, that made her feel alone, that made her feel like no one would ever get it. And she saw knowing looks and she felt empathy by connection to not experience, but emotion. She started coming out of the shame and moved from sympathy seeking to empathy seeking. And so I this is such a long answer.

But these are complex questions. So, Chuck. There is a big difference between, I think, disappointment and self-pity. I also think and this is really important. The action tendency. Meaning a key element of all emotions and cognitions, as well as the action tendency. What is the motivation? What do you do next from this emotion? What is it? What does it propel you to do? The action tendency with disappointment is to do better. Is to move through it, think through it.

I think this has got researcher here at the action tendency of self pity is to seek sympathy, not specifically to move through it, to get through it, to learn from it or to do better check strong preference for the pickleball question did. Oh, my God, I really am going to give up, dude. I thought I should give up dude at 40. Still with me at 50, 60 is going to be the key non do decade.

OK. Let's listen to Matthew's question.

Hey, Rene and her team. This is Matthew in Los Angeles. Deeply appreciate all the work you do. I love the distinction between shame and guilt that you just did in the previous episode, and that shame is not a tool for social justice. I'm curious about the distinction of how we clarify the historical atrocities and how we shape movements of control of evil, that there's zero tolerance when we talk about Nazi ism. Germany and about the atrocities that were committed, but that America does not have that same sort of zero tolerance when it comes to the sins of slavery and enslavement and dehumanization and subjugation discrimination.

So how do we divide? As they say, the history and heritage, they continue to prop up these systems of hatred and allow it to continue to exist. When does something become worthy of shame? Because my aunt said something very specific like that. America has a problem with shame. And yet when you look internationally, we are very quick to completely. Penalize and title in name Shame for four when we see evil done elsewhere, but not necessarily in our own history, our own borders.

There's so many questions embedded in this and so many people way more qualified to answer the majority of them. I'm thinking about my conversation with Ibram Kendy with Austin Channing Brown. I'm going to take one question. I played all the questions because I think they're all important to give context. But I'm going to pull one thread out of here. Which is when does something become worthy of shame? So I believe that. And I don't know, because I haven't talked to Matthew, but I believe under that question.

Is the presupposition that shame can change behavior in a good way? It's just unkind, are too painful to use. And if it's not going to address I mean, address that this anyway and then go to the other things I think could be under the question. So I don't believe shame. If you've listened to the podcast before this on shame and accountability, you'll know that I don't believe in shame as a social justice tool. And as I've talked to many activists from Toronto, Burke, too, again, Ibram, Candy, Austin, Janning, Brown, but many other many others across many other issues.

I've never heard anyone say that they thought shame was a good social justice tool, honestly. Not a single person, no matter what the issue is. So it's not that I think shame is too painful to use, are too too dangerous to use. I just don't think it's effective. And I got to tell you it. And this is not something I'm proud of, to be honest with you. But if I thought it, knowing how painful shame is, if I thought I could change some of the things that we're facing today in the world, I would probably say release the cracken.

I really I think I would just say the greater good outweighs the pain of. Some individuals who are wreaking havoc. Dehumanizing. You know, people are dying. So if I thought we could shame people out of police brutality, if I thought we could shame people into wearing masks and social distancing, I might go for, you know, I don't know, I'd have to think about it. But my gut would be I'd say, well, you got no way.

Common good here maybe. I don't know. But that this is just not the case. The intellectual ethics exercise is not worth it. Pointless, I guess. But I don't think shame is an effective tool.

I think shame is really related to the first question around fake news.

We're so hard wired to leap out of pain and discomfort and vulnerability and uncertainty and fear that shame is often the first thing we grab. So you say something that I disagree with. It causes me rage or pain, and I just shame the shit out of you. I belittle, humiliate you, but nothing changes.

Nothing changes, just the world is just, you know, a little bit bleaker, a little grosser, a little bit more dehumanized.

I think accountability. Is what we don't do, because, interestingly, accountability is hard in cultures of vulnerability, because accountability itself is vulnerable, it's just more vulnerability, it's just more uncertainty. And it's a shit ton of work.

You know, for me to hold you accountable means I need to say here's what this experience is doing to me. Here's what's not acceptable. Here's what's got to change. Here's how it has to change. Here's one it has to change by.

And here are the consequences of. Not changing it, so accountability is hard. And when you're. When you're dealing with people trying to hold people who have more power than you accountable. Shame becomes a much easier weapon to grab. Because it'd be one thing if I was the CEO of a company and I was like, here's the new rule around Quotability. Everyone has to do this by this date. This is what it's going to look like. This is what it looks like if you don't do it.

Here are the consequences. You know, because I have the authority.

To do that. And the power to do that. That's why. Accountability. When we're in a power over situation, looks like protest, it looks like protest. It always has. It always will. Accountability is the tool. And when you don't have power or when the people you're fighting use power over instead of power with empowered to accountability becomes very difficult. It doesn't make shame any more effective. And here's the thing that really is just the worst.

Then the quickest handle you grab is shame. Then all the sudden you're shaming, you're humiliating your name, calling, your cancelling. You're doing all of these things. And now the debate shifts right in the middle of it from the real injustice to your behavior of using shame. It's just. It doesn't work. It doesn't work. For example, if I mean, let me just take a really micro example, because I think it's easier to understand when we use really, you know, micro examples and then we can apply them to macro systems or even mezo systems, you know, systems working with system.


Steve and I are in an argument. It's getting heated. My feelings are hurt and I see something really shaming to him. It doesn't matter if he did something really crappy to start this fight. It doesn't matter if he was disrespectful or did something hurtful, because now I've said something that's cruel and scarring and mean probably used a vulnerability that he has shared with me against him. And now it doesn't matter what happened in the beginning.

Now, the whole vortex of what's happening is on me and not in a good way. And so that's why. It just doesn't shame doesn't work, cruelty doesn't work. The example that you that that Matthew used around Germany and Nazi ism is really interesting because. You know, I I heard from people on Twitter, I had I did a Facebook live after the violence in Charlottesville and after the neo-Nazi white guys and Polo's in khakis with, I don't know, tiki torches.

I don't. Yeah, marched. And I did a Facebook life around privilege and speaking out against that and why it was important and how there were no nice people. I mean, like that statement from Trump. And it was interesting because some of the people that deemed me and commented were German and they were just.

In shock. That Americans would allow that display of Naziism and because in in Germany, just the presence of neo-Nazis, the paraphernalia, the swastikas, those kind of things, the Hitler salute, the statues, Holocaust denial even is illegal and. There's even a legal concept that you can't even incite hatred. So any any group of people inciting hatred against another group could go to jail. So I don't know, so to say. Well, the Germans the Germans are on top of the neo-Nazi movement and some of this some of this dehumanization and hatred because they use shame.

I don't know that that's that's accurate. Is saying there are laws in place and there's accountability. Now, this is not without controversy, right? Because it's a legal strategy and a legal strategy is a is an accountability strategy where a shame strategy, you just name calling it, make you feel bad about yourself. If all we did with drunk drivers was shame them as opposed to like take away their driver's license at Costco, jillion dollars, you go to jail.

I don't know that. I don't know that we could. I don't know that that that works. I don't know. But. The problem with a legalistic strategy is who is determining what's hateful and then we get into a civil liberties issue. Who's in power? If we had something like that now, there's no doubt in my mind that this administration would say black lives matter. They didn't have to be a get out of my line, as Trump said, that a Black Lives Matter monument that that one is going up in New York was a hateful.

So the problem about about an accountability strategy that's legal is a legalistic strategy, I guess, is civil liberties. So I don't know that we can say shame is working here. I. Honestly, if you look at outcome data, and I'm not I don't have the most current, it's something I looked tend to probably seven or eight years ago.

One of the things it's really interesting is looking at public health models to see what works for. For change there and in public health models around, like successful public health changes like teeth brushing and seatbelt wearing. That might give us some insight because. Police brutality is a public health issue, and it should be looked at as a public health issue and funded like a public health issue. Dehumanization, hate crimes. Terrorism. I absolutely believe they should be classified like that.

Acts of white supremacy, terrorism funded, researched, tracked very much like the Southern Poverty Law Center. So I think there are models where we have seen successful communal change. I don't know of any of those that have been shame based because a lot of people in our culture today. If you shame them, we'll almost perceive that as proud moments of martyrdom to like, look, I've been called this by these people, which makes me a hero with my people.

You know, I just it doesn't work. There's no accountability. There's no change. There's no policy. There's no financial investment. I just don't think it works.

But, Matthew, lots of lots of questions in here in your questions. OK. Let's listen to the question from Anne, who is in Charlottesville.

Hi, my name is Anne. I'm calling from Charlottesville, Virginia. I am 24 years old and I identify as a gay woman. My question is, what role does religion play in the incessant shaming and belting of LGBTQ people? And how can that type of force be resisted or combated when religion is often considered to be absolute truth? Thank you. So this idea of, you know, what role does religion play in Shameen? LGBTQ plus people shame as a tool.

Of social control. So let's go back. One question I get asked all the time is, is shame ever? Useful. So if we look at shame from an evolutionary biological perspective, it served a purpose. Communal living was necessary for survival. You did something that threatened the community's safety. You were shunned, pushed out of the community and the community became safer and you became dead. If you look at evolution. Perhaps, yes. There is still this idea that someone not conforming to communal rules is a threat to the community.

Now, as we've evolved and our brains have evolved and our capacity for thinking and emotion has evolved, it has become it has become a sledgehammer on a thumbtack.

You cannot use it. And it doesn't work. We don't, as a collective, believe in the scarlet letter approach.

But make no make him. Make no mistake, that shame is still used in religion all the time as a tool of social control. And then you get God on your side or you get the Bible on your side or you get. Whatever. Whatever, you know, doctrine on your side. I mean, then it's not even an anvil on a thumbtack, then it's like, you know, a cannon against a thumbtack.

And so one of the things that I've seen in the research, because we we did a lot of research early on when we were studying shame around shame and religion, spirituality. And what we found is that it's very interesting. People often asked, OK, what denomination is most shame prone? Who uses the most shame?

So all the Catholics thought it was the Catholics. The Jews thought it was the Jews. But the Southern Baptists were actually could very sure that it was the Southern Baptists. They were they were like, look, we know that you're hearing from the Catholics and the Jews, but it's us for sure.

We know already. So one of the things that we found is that no denomination emerged as more Shameen than others. However, shame did Kluster by congregation. So some churches were specifically more shaming than others, which means that it's the people using shame, not necessarily how they use doctrine, how they use texts, how they use their power. So we definitely found clusters around congregations and those clusters around congregations were across every denomination, Muslim, Catholic, Jewish Baptists, mainline Protestant across the board.

So to me. When we talk about religion, shame is a very manmade part of that. And I use that word specifically. It is very much how men in power. Decided to add to their power by the use, by using God in their shame crew. And what was interesting to me about this, as well as the majority of people, I think, was over 80 percent of people healing from religious shame wounds found healing in spirituality. They, however, did often leave their denomination and their church.

So there is a long history that goes back from the beginning, I'm sure, to the beginning of time around, how shame is used as a tool for social control.

And one of the most dangerous stories that we make up is that who we are, who we love, how we live, can be judged as wholly good or divine by anybody. But ourselves and our relationship with our God, how we define our God. So the stories we make up about who we are. Based on what we heard growing up and seeing growing up, very dangerous narratives that we have. We spend a lot of our lifetimes unraveling. But it is worth it because on the other side of getting to the truth of that story is your inherent worthiness and lovability.

OK, your last question for the podcast episode today is from Sheila. Let's listen to her request hibernate.

It's Sheila from Denver. And I would really love it if you would answer your 10 question. Quick fire with your own personal answers. During the AMAA episode. Thanks.

OK, Sheila. Great. Turning the tables, the interviewer becomes the interviewee. I will answer the 12 Rapid Fire, which I'm not even going to think through them. I'm just going to answer it.

Number one, vulnerability is hard and brave too. I'm called to be brave, but my fear is real and stuck in my throat. What's the first thing I do? Name that I'm in fear. Three, something that people often get wrong about you. I don't know. Maybe that I misread that I'm a serious person. I don't know, sometimes I think people think I'm like, like kind of goofy and funny and silly, but that I think by that they don't know.

I'm kind of a serious person. I don't think I thought I was a serious person, but I'm a serious person. But then, yeah, maybe that I'm kind of a serious person. Last show that I binged and loved Grocott. Lord have mercy.

Normal people. Number one and number two, in current binge mode, I may destroy you.

She's got like it also better waking up in the morning knowing that this kind of talent exists in the world. So normal people and I may destroy you. Powerful favorite movie, The Color Purple will definitely be in the top few. We'll go with The Color Purple. What's on my nightstand? Phone charger. Moisturizer of foot moisturizing cream. An unbelievable leaning tower of books. A lamp. And that's it. A concert. I'll never forget U2. Any of them favorite meal.

So I've been Iquito for like years. So we buy like some kind of fresh, non fishy whitefish. And then brought it in like Cerone is like pork rinds. And then we serve it when I make this cilantro, lime coleslaw out of, like, either coleslaw, broccoli slaw. And I really love that. If I were not on Kitto, fried chicken, mashed potatoes, white roll butter, dimensioned mashed potatoes yet corn and damage and fried chicken and mashed potatoes and corn and a roll and then some kind of cobbler, blueberry cobbler.

OK, snapshot of an ordinary moment in my life that brings me true joy in the water at the lake with my family, friends floating and talking. I can never get over how magic it is. I would say a weird snapshot of an ordinary moment. My life right now would also have to be being on a very isolated hike in the Hill country and finding Jonathan Van Ness sitting on a rock under a cedar tree. It was as if I was in a fairy tale and like cartoon creatures would start frolicking about and birds would land on my finger.

What am I deeply grateful for right now? My team at work, my family and my this community, the people that just helped me move through the day. And just the people who helped me move through the day at this point. All right. This was AMAA ask me anything. Part one of two. We may you do the second part. Next week, we may move it out a little bit. Just depends. All right. Thanks, Short-stay.

Awkward, brave and kind. Keep your hands washed. Masks on your keep your social distance and take good care.