Welcome to the Karma School of Business, podcast about the private equity industry, business best practices, and real-time trends. I'm Sean Mooney, Blue Eyes founder and CEO. In this episode, we have an amazing conversation with Josh Adams, partner with Opengate Capital. Enjoy. I am very excited to be here with Josh Adams.

Thank you, Sean.

Appreciate it. I've been really excited to have this conversation for a whole host of reasons. One is there's all these different paths, different approaches to private equity, and we're all coming in from different ways. The stories that you have at OpenGate are really interesting as well. Maybe one One of the things I'd be curious to learn more about is what attracted you to the private equity industry? How did you get into this world?

It's funny. Having listened to several of your podcasts, which I really enjoy, by the way, so thank you for doing what you do. It's incredible. Outside of obviously Blue Wave himself, it's been fantastic. I've listened to a lot of people talk about their nontraditional paths. I want to put myself up there as a very, very different path to most others. If you can't tell from the accent, it's a bit of a strange one. I grew up in South Wales in the UK, and it was definitely a part of me where I had a finance insight. I wanted to spend more and more time in finance. I was fortunate to spend some time with a family friend who had his own accountancy firm. During that time, certainly in the summer holidays, I remember one very specific conversation with the wife of Rob, the gentleman I was working for. She said to me, when we were having a break one day, she said, Josh, if you can match this thrive for accountancy and finance and analytical to an understanding of personalities and how to read the room and how to bring people together, not to say anything negative about accountants.

But if you can bring that personality, it really is an interesting combination. I think she was trying to take a dig at her husband, but I saw it as an opportunity myself. I'll never forget that conversation, her and I still joke about it. At the age of 18, I moved up to London, so two hours outside of Wales, and started working at my uncle's accountancy firm. It was a summer job. I was meant to be going back to university. He put me in a pretty unique situation and said, Josh, there's an opportunity here for you. We didn't come from money. It was an opportunity to not go to university, not have a student debt. But also in the UK, I'm not sure how it is in the US, Sean, but an accountancy, you have to have three years of work experience as well as your examinations. I managed to do my work experience and my qualification by the age of 21 and a half, 22. I'd done what I needed to do. Most people would finish at 21, 22 university and then do their three plus three, and it would take more time. I think that in itself was my entree to what I would say finance.

During that period of time, I found myself in a very fortunate position. I always think about these things as the right time, the right place. I was a very keen sportsman, played a lot of cricket growing up, a sport that probably a majority of the audience don't know what that is or think about it very differently. The head of our corporate finance team at the accountancy firm I was working for brought me in and said, Look, you're a great cricketer. We love what you do. Come and work for us in corporate finance. That was my eye-opening way of understanding the equity capital markets, debt capital markets, and seeing the lens of private equity, just enough, if you will. And then again, right time, right place. I was fortunate to be going out, networking, and getting to know people in the London market. And I happened to meet a gentleman who was working for Platinum Equity, which I'm sure you know very well. So Platinum were moving from Paris to London. And as part of that, he was looking to build out the team. So from what goes from a networking conversation to a, Hey, why don't we catch up for lunch next week?

To two weeks later being on a flight, going to Los Angeles, to then joining the firm two months later, all with not really knowing what private equity was, to be honest with you. The best way to do that, in my experience, as I described, was the doing by being in the organization. I'd say that I didn't wake up saying, I want to be in private equity, but I found myself on a path that created that journey for me that I'm eternally very grateful for, and grateful for the people who helped carve that out for me as well. I'd like to say maybe a very nontraditional path.

I really appreciate that perspective and the journey you're on. What I would What I'd say is there's absolutely some areas that aren't traditional, but there's a lot of things just by the virtue of having all these conversations with people like you, you've achieved all this success in private equity. There's some commonalities that I see in there. One of the things is that tenacity and grit that you showed at such a young age, and frankly, probably showed at an earlier age than most, where you essentially did what most people do would take twice as long to do, and you figured out a way to make it all happen at once in a path that maybe you didn't know where you're going to end up. That's what every deal feels like, too. You don't know where they're going to go. What is also, I'd say, unique in a lot of private equity is also this ability that you figured out the ability to, like going back to your earlier part of our conversation, not only be smart and hardworking, but also I have this in touch with what it sounds like with humanity and the ability to interact with people that I can tell you it has escaped me for the vast majority of my life, including probably now.

I don't think so. This ability to interact, I think it sounds really unique. You're right, it's not right out of that central casting, but so much of the element makes complete sense to me as I hear you share.

It's also about, I don't know if you would agree with this in your experience, you've seen this as well. I mean, it's also about having people with a diversity of thoughts and background. I think we can all appreciate looking through a different lens. When you've come from a different background, you look through a different lens. It's very simple. I'm very grateful for that. I'm very grateful I was given the opportunity I was given. I wouldn't have said I was going to end up in private equity. Like I said, I did not know what private equity was. But when I say right time, right place, to join platinum equity on the heels of them raising 2.75 billion, closing that 15 days before Lehman in 2008, right time, right place feels right. But I'm better lucky than not. I think that's the way to think about it.

Yeah, and I like the serendipity of what you're talking about. But I also appreciate you tend to put yourself in front of these waves when they come through. If you're not swimming out there, I think that's great. I can somewhat empathize I grew up in a family business working in manufacturing plants in Texas, which in the '90s, no one knew what even investment banking was in Texas, and I'm in high school. I ended up going to college in Washington, DC, with all these kids from the Northeast. Of course, I'm the one kid who didn't get all the internships. They asked me, What are you going to do? I'm like, I don't know. What are you guys going to do? They go, Investment banking. I go, What's investment banking? I'm like, Okay, I guess that sounds good. I did that. Then I remember when I was finally looking, trying to see what's next. What should I do? I was like, I'm going to do private equity. Even though back then the path was so much more narrow and there wasn't as much diversity of thought and entrance, it still was this, I had no clue what I was doing.

I just stumbled into it. But I think the industry is 10,000% better for the way it is now with people coming from all these paths versus maybe if you go into the wayback machine, whereas the tree was 6 inches wide.

Yeah, I couldn't have said it better. I think, yeah, grateful for all of that, grateful for the perspective that we all have for that as well.

I appreciate that sometimes it's better to be lucky than good, but usually it's better to be both.

I'm a golfer, too. The golfer in me, definitely, luck is definitely helpful. I'll take it every time.

Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. So one of the things, Josh, I love to ask people on this podcast is getting tidbits of Trivia, lesser known things about you. Is this question, We'd know you better if we knew this about you? One of the additional things that we would know you have been- Yeah, I followed That's our theme in a few of your questions in your prior interviews.

I touched on being a golfer. I'm passionate about golf. I'm very fortunate that I've been able to play some great golf around the country, around the world. I'm very fortunate to be a member. A lot of places to do that, it's definitely a passion of mine. I'd say my biggest thing, and I touched on it in my brief intro there, is I'm a very proud Welshman. When I say Wales, I'm Wales and Welshman. It's not the Wales with a H in it. It's the 3.1 million people just outside of England as people think about it. So very proud Welshman. When you leave Wales, you become more patriotic, if that's even possible. And so it's been a great journey. I'm very happy. I'm back there so often. My benefit of being with Opengate here for me is we have a global offering. I spend a lot of time in Europe, a lot of time back in our Paris office. I get a chance to see my family, but that's home, and that will always be home. So, yeah, there's a nice little community of people I bump into around the world who happen to pop up and be like, Yeah, I grew up in Wales.

It's always a nice thing to do. So I'm a proud Welshman, and we have a few famous people from there that probably people would know. Tom Jones, which is not unusual, or Catherine Zeta Jones. It's a place we're all very proud of.

You have a prince from there, too, right?. But that makes sense. I appreciate that as well as maybe analogous to that. If you grow up in the United States and you grew up in the United States and you grew up in Texas, it's like this whole other thing. Then when you find people in different places, you're instantly friends in ways that you couldn't comprehend. I 100% appreciate that and that kinship that you have from being away from home.

It's funny when people say to me, Oh, you're English? I'm not trying to be difficult, but I'm like, No, I'm Welsh or I'm British. I know all you got to do is watch the rugby and you'll understand why. But we're definitely different nations, so I'm very proud of that.

I appreciate on many levels. Particularly all those years when I was in New York, I always felt like, No, I'm really a Texan. There we go. This episode is brought to you today by Bluewave. Bluewave is the go-to expert of those with expertise. Bluewave connects proactive business builders, including hundreds of the world's leading private equity firms and thousands of leading companies, to the very best BlueWave credential professional service providers, independent consultants, and interim executives for their critical variable on-point and on-time business needs. Now back to the episode. One of the things I think we kicked off with this, and I'd be curious. One of the things I've always appreciated most about private equity is that there's plenty of really smart people. But I think the defining characteristic is this ability to work through tough situations, overcome this tenacity and grit that we talked about right at the beginning of our conversation here. Josh, I'd be curious, what were one of the harder things that you've encountered in business and life? How did you overcome that as you approach the challenge?

Yeah, look, It's difficult to not answer that question looking back on the last 2-3 years. But I think maybe if I can, maybe just for the audience benefit, we as a firm, Opengate, we were founded back in 2005. Andrew, Niko, my management partner and founder. Andrew set up a firm For 10 years, we invested our own capital, and it was incredibly successful. It led us to raising institutional capital. I think when I look back on the last five years and certainly raising institutional capital for a first-time fund, and I look at where we are today, funds two and fund three online, the last 18 to 24 months have been incredibly challenging. A lot of people have seen that, too. I think it's really opened the lens of capital allocators, how they think about allocating capital to private equity and to other illiquid assets as well. It's become a very fascinating market. I would say the last 2-3 years have been probably the most challenging environment because it's gone from the world of acronyms. We've gone from the importance of ESG, which I think a lot of people certainly can get very much behind. It's gone to DEI.

We spoke about diversity I missed the earlier. But then it's also become the importance of DPI. You're paid in capital coming back and how much return of capital is driving the cash flow that's going into the LPs and capital allocators. I would say to you, the last three Three years in particular have been a very, very challenging time for the LP community and to be in the market while raising capital in a market that is so constrained. I think it's really put a light on that industry as well. You have the capital allocators putting capital to work so quickly in growth areas, maybe tech or growth equity or venture capital or healthcare and biotech. Where we as an allocator are more on as a GP is really in the basket of being a operationally focused, heavy corporate of our special situations marketplace, which that wasn't sexy two, three years ago. Actually hasn't been sexy for a long time. But as we sit here today, it's becoming the theme that people want to spend time on because it's becoming very relevant. I would say the more broader challenge that we've had is just to bring in the right LPs in who understand what we do, because what we do isn't easy.

I would say to you, as I think through the last 10 years, it's been a zero interest rate environment. Here we are today, interest rates are different and people are now having to be very thoughtful about the alpha generating returns and how they generate that. And that plays into what we do. It plays into how you've been incredibly helpful to us and your team as well about bringing in the right executives, working together, finding the right people. And I think that, to me, has been probably the biggest challenge, is trying to bring people on board who understand who you are, what we do, and how we should be doing it. And so overall, I'd say that's probably one of my more challenging environments. I'm responsible for the fundraising efforts at OpenGate as well as many other things. I would imagine many of your clients and other GPs would agree with the same. It's just been a very challenging environment, whether it be investing capital, whether it be raising capital, and really bringing all of those factors together, if you will, Sean, over the last several years.

I think it's a very broadly felt sentiment that you're sharing. You think about what we've gone through. One, we've been through this 15-year Ben Bernankean cycle that seemed like everything was going to go on forever. At some point, there's discipline that comes back to the market. Usually, when you go on these long-term hauls, you get a fever afterwards. I think the entire global economy has been in this fever. In the same time, you've got multiple industries that became an industry. If you think about the limited partners, the GPs, all of them growing up and maturing through this incredibly crazy cycle. Then you throw, just for good measure, a global pandemic. That really hasn't happened since what, 1918? All of this change through the entire stack. It's all the way past the LPs, up into the people that are investing into their stakeholders as well. I think the entire industry is dealing with this and finding its way through. How do you approach this? How do you think about navigating through this situation where you're taking one step at a time.

Yeah, so I completely agree. You look at the technology market over the last 15, 20 years, it's been changing every single day. Then we all, the whole industry, the whole world, forget private equity, the whole world just changed in February, March, 2020. We all had to adapt to a new world. That had a compounding impact on the financial economic impact that has on the entire industry, the whole ecosystem to what you just said. Look, I think what we have done, and I think many firms have done, is private equity is about investing in people. It's a people business. I'm very grateful for that. I think it's where, personally, I shine. It's where our team shine. It's whether you are working with a management team, whether you are working with the team here internally, about of focusing on the right things. I think one of the biggest takeaway, Sean, I've had over the last several years, my team hate me saying this phrase, but I use it too often, but is the benefit of focus is immediate. The benefit of synergies is theoretical. And so our need to just be focused on what we do and what we do very well is probably the most important part of what I've taken over the last 5-7 years.

And by the way, I should add, it's so easy for LPs to say no today. It's so easy for me when I receive to leave a deal to say no. It's so easy to say no in what we do. A lot of people don't like saying no. That's a problem a lot of us have, too. We're all deal junkies and we enjoy doing it. But the benefit of saying no and the immediate need of focus has allowed me and the team here certainly to align and where we're good. And a lot of assessment had to go into that. A lot of analysis had to go into, well, where are we good and what do we do? We are a corporate carve-out specialist. We've done 35 corporate carve-outs around the world. Many people say they can do them, but when you've done 35, you've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly, and you know how to approach every single one of them. And you'll still learn, by the way. You should still learn from every single one. But I think that for me has been we have really refocused our investment thesis onto those key areas.

We have focused our time and attention on working with the right executives who've gone through those complicated transactions. You know this, Sean, bringing in someone to take on a growth project is vastly different to taking over a corporate car that has been spun out of a large corporation. You got to find someone who's either done that before or willing to understand What has to go into that? Some of these things take 12, 18, 24 months. Whether you like it or not, they do. A IT system, new ERP system all being separated from a large corporate, those things don't happen overnight. Not many large corporates work that quickly. We have found ourselves really focusing on what we do very well. I mentioned earlier, we invest across Europe and US. I would say the European market is very inefficient. It's allowed us to be more proactive. Being European, I feel like I can say this, that's not something the Europeans are very good at. Being very proactive and being in front of people and building relationships on the ground has been something we've been doing since I've been here for 12 years, but even prior to myself.

We've taken a bit of a different approach in Europe, and it's really helped supported our growth as well. We have a phenomenal team, a phenomenal group of individuals here at OpenGate that allow us to do that. I think the way I just described it as focus has been probably the biggest thing we've had to take away. There's so much noise. Don't distract yourself with it. Remain focused.

I thousand % appreciate your perspective there, Josh. One of the things that I would get on my soapbox about is in some ways strategy, it's not easy, but it's the easier part of the equation of building value, choosing where you want to go. But then it's having that focus, aligning the resources, being better at fewer things, and then executing is so much harder. What you're articulating, I think, is a really important trend. Certainly what we see in you all is you're doing all that and treating your business like a business. In ways that early days when I was in PE, None of us wanted to make choices. We wanted to look at every deal that was out there, and we're really good at everything. Certainly, I know where you're spending your time on carveouts, those are really hard. I think one of the reasons why the only hair I have left are gray ones is a couple of the carveouts I tried.

That's me. I have a thing, too. It's It's everywhere.

I didn't know what I was doing. I think we sure willed it to happen, but I don't know that it was a pretty or a smooth process.

Look, I think you're right. One thing that we always need to remember is we're all in private equity for a reason. It's about an economic benefit we have. The correlation between what you put in and what you get out, you hope to be a positive correlation and something that has greater alignment. I think one thing that we've also done as well as a team is had a global economic incentivization. I want my colleagues in Europe to help us and help the team in the US. I want the US team to help the European team. It is one team. I know this sounds so simple, Sean, but so many GPs I find, personally, are run by deal leads. They know how to run the deal, but when they have to run the firm, it's very, very different. When I think our go-to-market strategy, we have origination, execution, which is your underwriting M&A team, and then your operations team. I know you're very familiar with this, but I think those three stools in many private equity firms are really just one person. We said, No, we're going to bring in the best people to do origination because that's a different skill set to the analytical guy or girl who sat there going through the quality of earnings, going through the work streams and running the deal to then have an operations team who have that experience, have their subject matter experts, and if not, then we come in and bring someone in to help support us, and certainly understands the playbook that we have as a team.

I don't think any one person can do that. I mean, of course, our egos tell us we can, but the reality is that's not the case. You want to have the right people doing the right thing and then having optionality. I said, optionality is great, but at the same time, you need to be focused. And so our playbook, I think, has really led ourselves to have optionality, which means we have the ability to say no. As I said that have the ability to say, No, this is not the right one for us. We're going to allocate our time and resources to this, which is all we have at the end of the day is time and resources. So that, to me, has been probably the biggest gift also as well, is this is how our team has scaled. I think that's why we've been able to do that.

I like what you said there on numerous fronts. You really portrayed the evolution of PE in many places really well in that, as I would think about the early innings of private equity, going back to 2004, it was like you had a deal teams that did everything, and you just search for that 25th hour in a day, and you're willing things to happen. There was a lot of imperfection in there, but it was an imperfect market. There were arbitrages available. As the industry has evolved, it's gone from maybe a single instrument band to now it's like a symphony where you've got the business development teams, you have the deal teams, you have the operating teams, you have the portal leadership teams, you have internal resources, you have external resources. Then for you all, it's not only I think just one part of the world, you have this global mindset where you're looking across an ocean and bringing it all together. As you've really shown leadership in this evolution as a firm and as your professionals that we get to see, how do you manage that interplay between all these constituents to make sure you're all heading the notes at the right cadence and playing together?

The importance of being globally incentivized as one firm and one team. I know we can all say, Well, that makes sense, but not a lot of people do it. Just to be very clear, what that means is that if it's a European deal, the US team have the same economics as if it was their deal and vice versa. Very, very important. It means that you're always willing to help. You always want to help. It's really an alignment that I think is really critical that many other firms don't do. I understand why they don't, but we were able to have a blank piece of paper and start to do this from day one. I'd also say to you the European element of our business-Based out of Paris, France, we've been investing out of Europe since 2007, led by my partner Julian Lagrez. We've seen many firms venture into Europe in the last five years. We've built up a stellar team, a phenomenal team who's done a great job. I'm very excited about the growth of that team as well, because we've had people in the firm now that, I'll make sure he listens this, but a gentleman called Xavier Lambert.

Xavier joined us as an intern 11 years ago. He's now a principal leading his own deals. I mean, it's just incredible. Nico and the team as well, a similar, joined one or two years later and now SVP leading his own. So we've really invested into the team and the people there. And it's given a complete transformation of the mindset of how people are approach that market. So you can't suitcase back and forth. You can't be American and go live in France. It just doesn't work. You have to have the cultural sensitivity's understanding of the market to really benefit from it and be successful. I would say, look, I'm in the office 6:30, 7 o'clock every morning. They work a double shift. It works incredibly well. They go and have their dinner. They come back from dinner at 11 o'clock, they turn on their laptops, and we're back online and we're working on a deal and we have things moving. It just works very, very well. Then when you package together and you look at the double shift mentality, which we talk about a lot, or even the ability to navigate transatlantically as one firm, it differentiates yourself.

The buyer universe is so much smaller when you can say, Well, we can do this across both sides. We can buy a global business and operate as one team in one firm without having to have the discussions of, Well, whose deal is this? Who's running this deal? That doesn't matter. I think for me, the European part of our business, which is roughly 50% of our investments are in Europe. This is not a side allocation that some people may make. It's been a tremendous part of our business. Then the one final thing I part on is that we have a global origination team, which is about six people, sector-led focus. We're deeply into these sectors on a global basis. Then we have local execution and operations. To the point I mentioned around the sensitivities that are there from understanding the nuances of different geographies. I mean, you can leave France, go over the border and be in Belgium, or head up to Germany or a stop off in the Netherlands. It's very different. All of them have their own different labor laws. They have all the different complications. You just got to know it. You got to hire people locally, have subject matter experts who can help navigate that.

That, to me, is about bringing everyone in at that level.

I really, once again, appreciate what you're sharing here, Josh, because it's being very deliberate and purposeful about how you're going to work together and aligning incentives around the goal that you want to achieve. As we all know, so much of the outcomes are driven by you structure the incentives. You're making that so everyone wins. So long as you win together, you're going to win as a team, you're going to lose as a team. If that's the goal and you include all this tenacity and grit that we've talked about, then it becomes a lot harder to lose than it is to win. You're setting the systems in place. One of the things as we think about this approach that you have, you've got this strategy aligned with resources and incentives and this alignment that happens throughout the whole the way that you execute your business of private equity. How are you all approaching the business of private equity in this market?

Well, as I have alluded to, it's been a tough one, but it's certainly been something we've had to navigate. The ecosystem has been congested somewhat by the lack of exits, the lack of cash flow, the lack of DPI going up and out, and then the ability for that to be reinvested. I think the market in general has been very, very challenged there. I think overall, it's given us the ability to step back, be very thoughtful about our capital deployment, not the allocation, the deployment of capital and how and where we put that capital to work. As we just touched on, that can be Europe, that can be US, that can be industry-specific. We have really refocused our time and energy onto industrials and corporate carveouts. The industrial world has led us to a pretty unique spot where we have the deep understanding of these industries from owning and operating these businesses since 2005 when we were founded, right through to where we are today, so nearly 20 years, of actually owning and operating businesses up and down the value chain. As an example, we've owned chemical companies that have been manufacturing feedstock and raw material right through to the extrusions of those products and then even the distribution of those products.

But they all span some very key industries, the basic materials, the building products, the chemicals, the packaging, the minerals, the metals, things you can touch. Then they've gone into other end markets, aerospace and defense and industrial services and industrial technology and capital These are the industries that we have now refined ourselves to say, Okay, let's look at where we've had success. Let's make sure we have the right alignment. Let's make sure we have the right go-to-market strategy. I think by sharing earlier about how we think about the market, your right origination people, the right execution people. Let's just talk about the operating executives as well. There's such an important part of this equation. We have had to bring in people to be very thoughtful about those subject matter experts. Let's be honest, we don't know. You got to bring in the right people to help support who we are and what we do. It's easier to do that when you've made successful outcomes and returns with individuals. They're on your speed dial, they're on the website, they're on your executive network. But when you enter into a space that you may not know, an industry you may not know, you have to go and find the right people who get your DNA, understand how you think and how you evaluate that.

Terminology here is more the triangle offense of bringing in a operating executive as early as possible. When we're moving the deal, to use the analogy, down the court, that they are continuing to touch and to play with that with us and understand where we're taking it and see where we want to go. Because as you know, today's world, it's so easy. You can make anything work in Excel. Everyone knows that. So trying to make sure that our underwriting process is thoughtful, thematic, and has the right hypothesis is all about having the right people in the room. And so we have done that now with many executives, bringing them in. Sometimes they're in the investment committee presentation as well as part of the management team. Sometimes the operating executive is either a diligence member of the team, or sometimes they're a potential board member. Sometimes they're actually one of the operators who's going to run the business. We just sold a company late last year to a South Korean Corporation. This is a business called Verdent, a corporate carve-out from Solvay. A great example of the gentleman who is our subject matter expert, John Foley, later became the CEO, later co-invested in the deal.

Two and a half years later, we have a fantastic outcome, and he's done a phenomenal job. He was someone that we will work with going forward because we just see the unique relationship we have there. That relationship was born by us understanding the market, knowing who the right person was, and finding that right individual. When you replicate that with multiple and multiple exits, you build up a really unique team and operating executive network that allows you to really build a strong, not just go-to-market strategy, but a strong underwriting, which is really why we're all here. We got to make sure that what we put on paper, we can stand behind. I think that's been a big part of where we have spent our time refining our approach in this environment, which is such a tough environment, to be very clear.

Once again, what you share there really resonates with me on multiple areas. One of the things that I really liked is this idea that being really open, comfortable, and honest with yourself about what you know and what you don't know, and using that as a superpower, not as a weakness. That was maybe something as we shared. I came up an area where I didn't know a lot of stuff. I didn't in Midtown Manhattan. I still every day I was reading all the George R. R. Martin books about the Game of Thrones, and there's this character who says, You know nothing, Jon Snow, over and over again. I was like, Every day, I feel like I know nothing. I guess one of the most humbling things I do at Blue Wave is we get to interact with all you folks. I'm like, How do I not know that? I mean, there's a long time, and it's just being comfortable not knowing, but embracing that as a strength.

Yeah, someone once said to me, so I'm not going to take credit for this, but it also resonated me, too, is that specifically in carveouts, which I think is really important, is that you can diligence as much as you want. You'll understand 70% of what you need to know, and then the 20% you'll understand when you own the business, and then the 10% will always been an unknown. You just won't know everything you need to know. I think that also just grounds you and understand that you can do as much work as you can, but you're only going to be able to get as much as you can out of it. I think for us as a group, that prides itself on speed and certainty, which as a buyer, that's how we have to differentiate ourselves. The more you can do upfront, the more you can do to get comfortable with that allows you to take that leap of certainty and speed that gets you to the finish line. But also knowing that the unknown is there, you will learn about it. It will come to you at the right time. But as long as you got the right people involved, you'll survive very well.

Absolutely. Maybe with that in mind, Josh, one of the things that I love about, A, being able to do this podcast with you and others who are new and old friends is that I think one of the common themes is most people have been successful, whether you're in private equity or not. We're great ingestors and consumers of wisdom that other people have learned, in many ways, the hard way, in some ways easier, but usually the harder way. Why not embrace what you don't know and learn from them? I'd be curious, what are one of your favorite books, personally or business-wise, that you've ingested over the period of time? And what are some of your takeaways?

Well, I'm always open for recommendations, so please. I've enjoyed that question as part of your podcast as well. I read enough, But I think it's a lot of business, a lot of what we do day in and day out. I'm dyslexic, so I find myself not reading more than I need to. It really hurts me a little bit too much than I ever probably gave myself credit for. So I've made that big shift where media has... Podcasts are huge in my life today. I listen to podcasts every morning on the way in. If I don't have a call or I'm trying to zone out on the way home from work, I'm listening to a podcast or an audiobook. And so on the podcast side, I would say the All In podcast. I'm not sure if you're a listener. It's one of the best. I think this happened during COVID for me. So during COVID, I had to have different types of podcasts. I mentioned earlier, I'm a huge golfer. So No Laying Up is a great podcast. I love them. I know the guys. They've done a phenomenal job. All In gave me my business, my tech, my worldly checkbox, if you will.

And And Smartless, which is a comedy podcast, which is Jason Bateman and Will Arnett and Sean Hayes. That gave me my Comedy, which we all needed during COVID, let's be honest. That was probably my three podcasts. But I think when I come to books and reading and all your books in particular, I've been a big fan of biographies. I love hearing other people's stories. I love when What It Takes by Steve Schwartzman was incredible. So tapering in the business part of it. Let My People Go Surfing by the founder of Patagonia. It's a phenomenal read. Green Lights. I don't know if you've read Green Lights being from Texas, which is the Matthew McConny piece. If you get the chance, I would ask you to not read it. Listen to it because he narrates it. It's like a movie. It's incredible. It's like every sentence finishes with green lights. And he is a phenomenal story. I would highly recommend it. And then you got the economic ones like Ray Dalio and others in principle. So I love these things or Shoe Dog with Phil Knight. But I can sue myself with those. But my podcasts are probably my biggest way of consuming media today.

Those are all great podcasts. Those are great books, many of which I haven't read. One of the things from this podcast that is the bane of my wife's existence is there's all these great recommendations, and right afterwards, I hit the one-click order. These little boxes just keep on showing up. Amazon is a big town. There's going to be a bunch that show up. Now, the daunting thing is I have this pile on my bedside.

I'm going to send you as a follow-up to this. I'm going to send you Greenlights as an audiobook. I don't know how you consume your audiobooks. I'm going to send it to you. But like I said, he narrates it and you're just like... It's like you would have paid a lot of money to just listen to him to read his own book. I mean, it's incredible. So I'll send it to you.

All right, all right, all right. He did it.

I wasn't going to try and do that.

He was a call out to Scott Hayden, my former neighbor, who was a fraternity brother with me. Oh, that's good.

He does talk about his time back there doing that in Austin.

Good Texas longhorn there. It warms my Austin, Texas heart where I grew up. That is wonderful. Josh, this has been an absolutely awesome conversation. I've thoroughly enjoyed it. I've learned a lot, and I can't wait to listen to Greenlights because I too love the audio medium when it's just so much easier to consume while you're walking or doing something.

Keep an eye out. I'll send it to you. But no, thank you, Sean, for what you do in Blue Wave in particular. It's been incredible. Really enjoy these type of conversations and yeah, really appreciate it.

And similar, Josh, it's a privilege, and I mean that to work with you and your team and see how you all do the business of private equity so well. So thank you, thank you, thank you. And we look forward to catching up with you sooner than later. Absolutely.

Let's hope so. Thanks, Sean.

That's all we have for today. Special thanks to Josh for joining. If you'd like to learn more about Josh and OpenGate Capital, please see the episode, Notes for Links. Please continue to look for the Carmen School of Business podcast anywhere you find your favorite podcast. We truly appreciate your support. If you like what you hear, please follow, rate, review, and share. It really helps us when you do this, so thank you in advance. In the meantime, if you need to be connected with the world's best in class, private equity-grade professional service providers, independent consultants, interim executives, or anything else, give us a call or visit our website at bluewave. Net. That's B-L-U-W-A-V-E, and we'll support your success. Onward.