Coming up next on Passion struck, we.

Can come up with a million reasons to stay in the wrong job. Well, of course there's responsibilities and the fear of what happens if I can't feed my child or what happens if I fail. And what are my family going to think of me? Or what are my friends going to think of me? It's really just fear of failure. But one of the tools I use, I've always used to build my muscle of courage, which I actually think courage is my superpower now is to face the fact that you're going to die. And when you do that, you end up using death as a tool for living because you realize how precious your time is and how every day it's reducing your life is getting closer to the end, whether you've got five years or 50 years left.

Welcome to Passion Struck. Hi, I'm your host, John R. Miles, and on the show we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions. On Fridays. We have long form interviews the rest.

Of the week with guests ranging from.

Astronauts to authors, CEO's, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes. Now let's go out there and become passion struck. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to episode 449 of Passion Struck. Consistently ranked the number one alternative health podcast. A heartfelt thank you to each and every one of you who return to the show every week, eager to listen and learn and discover new ways to live better, to be better, and most importantly, to make a meaningful impact in the world. If you're new to the show, thank you so much for being here. Or you simply want to introduce this to a friend or a family member, and we so appreciate it when you do that. We have episode starter packs, which are collections of our fans favorite episodes that we organize into convenient playlists that give any new listener a great way to get acclimated to everything we do here on the show. Either go to Spotify or passionstruck.com starterpacks to get started. Are you curious to find out where you stand on the path to becoming passion struck? Dive into our engaging passion struck quiz. Crafted to reflect the core principles shared in my latest book, this quiz offers you a dynamic way to gage your progress on the Passionstruck continuum.

Just head over to passionstruck.com to embark on this insightful journey with just 20 questions and roughly ten minutes of your time. Don't miss this chance to gain valuable insights into your passion struck journey. Take the quiz today. In case you missed it, I had a phenomenal interview early earlier in the week. It was with astronaut Steve Bowen, and we explored his path from the Naval Academy to becoming a submariner and how his travels in space so closely resemble his experience of being on a submarine. Plus, we go into his space walks, the fragility of earth from space, the differences between flying up on the shuttle and being a crew of SpaceX, and so much more. Such a fantastic interview. And if you liked that previous episode or today's, we would so appreciate you giving it a five star review and sharing it with your friends and family. That goes such a long way in strengthening the passion stark community. And I know we and our guests love to hear your feedback. Today we have the distinct honor of delving into the profound insights of Bronnie Ware, the esteemed author of the international bestseller the top five Regrets of the Dying.

Bronnie has touched the lives of millions globally, and that's why I wanted her so much to come on this podcast. Her words transcend language barriers and cultural divides. Ronnie's journey from an unfulfilling career to becoming a pivotal voice in palliative care has been nothing short of transformative. Her experiences at the bedside of the dying led to revelations about life's true value and the common regrets that many harbor as they reach life's twilight. Residing in the serene backdrop of rural Australia, Bronnie continues to champion the virtues of simplicity, courageous, and the space to breathe, guiding us towards following our hearts with daring resolve. Today, we'll explore the quintessential themes of her work, the essence of mattering, the quest for our ideal selves, the perils of silent desperation, and the transformative power of intentional living. Bronnie's narrative not only provides a roadmap for living without regrets, but also integrates a collective yearning to lead a life replete with purpose and passion. Prepare to be inspired as we embark on this journey with Bronnie ware. Thank you for choosing passion struck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life.

Now let that journey begin.

I am absolutely honored and thrilled to have Bronnie ware on passion struck. Welcome, Bronnie.

Thank you, John. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you.

I have been wanting to have you on this show for such a long time. You have had two amazing books over the years. But before we get into either of those, I wanted to explore your earlier background so that the audience has a bit to go from. So your career path took you from banking. And I was telling you before that I was involved with Australia, I worked for Lend lease, and when I was there, we still owned ML, see, before they sold it. But then you sold photographs, you were in hospitality, etcetera, and you did all this before you found your calling. How did those early struggles, and a principle that I've read you'd like to use around starting small, influence your path to success?

I think the pain of being in the wrong job gave me the courage to keep going. So they influenced it in that way. Definitely. But also, I think as a creative person, having a background really helps me be efficient running my business and being an author, because I don't think I'm the best author on the planet, the best nature photographer on the planet, but I have my act together and there's a lot of brilliant creative types that never get their work outside of their lounge room because they just don't have it together in a business sense. So I'm always grateful for that and for those 15 years in the banking industry. And yeah, I think that every role we do plays a part in the next one. I think all of them are preparing us in one way or another for the next role.

I liked some of the experiences that I read about with you being on islands, and I lived in Key west, so I absolutely know what it's like to be on island time. And I live here in St. Petersburg, Florida, right close to the beach, so I can still get that a little bit. But as you found, sometimes you get a transition out of it, and for you, transitioning into palliative care marked a real significant shift in your career. However, I want to ask this question a little bit different way. What guidance would you offer those who feel like they're trapped in unsatisfying roles and they don't know how to get out of that, to embrace the change that might lead them into something that might be closer to their heart?

I think you have to allow it to be a step by step process rather than spend all your time trying to work out how, because that is enough to stop you even taking the first step, because it can be overwhelming thinking, how am I going to do this? And what if it succeeds, then how am I going to manage it? Whereas if you just consider it as a step by step process, then you dare to take that first step. But one of the tools that actually got me on my way was an old book now by Shakti Kawain. It's called creative visualization. And it was long before the word manifestation or manifest was in common use language. And there was an exercise in that said, write down five things you're good at and five things you love to do. And that's what I did. And that's what helped me realize, even though I was still in banking then, I was quite a young bank manager. I just, I realized I was a creative person, but I wanted to work with heart. Like, I loved being connected to people, but I was a creative person. So I had things that landed in both columns and that really helped me define my way forward.

And so even though it took a lot of years to actually start making an income creatively, I realized that I had to start taking the steps to do that. So I think it's about getting clear on what really lights you up and where your skills are and seeing how you can overlap those. Because I really think that, as I said in the previous question, I really think that no skills are wasted, but it is a step by step process. And so we have to get out of our own way and stop trying to work out the how of every single thing and just have the courage to take the first step and then trust that the next step will reveal itself when we're ready. Because that's the process, that's the way I live, and it certainly is how it works. If you dare to not think too far ahead, you're obviously pulled forward by your vision. But we can get in our own way by over complicating our thinking and trying to work out all the answers too soon. So I just think, get clear on what lights you up, get clear on what you're good at, find a way to overlap those.

And then what is a step that you can do right now and also prepare for and then do, and that will at least get you on your way.

I really like that answer, and I just put out a solo episode on an action oriented mindset before. One of the things I have often heard people say is that they feel that they need to understand what their passion is before they start taking action. And I think it's the inverse. You need to start taking action and exploring new things, and that's how you expand yourself. And passion eventually starts entering your life through those different explorations. I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.

Yeah, I think that passion can also come through confidence. And so what you've just said, john, to take action, it can be scary because you're not sure what you're doing or where the action's leading. But the more action you take, yes. That's going to give you confidence. And the more confidence you have, the easier things become. So that can become a passion. And I think for me, it was definitely working out what my passions were and then taking action. But I've also learned that if you put too much pressure on the things you're passionate about, they can lose their passion. And so I think that it's probably finding that dance in the middle or that balance in the middle of taking action. And, yeah, I do think that passion can come through confidence, and that can only come through taking action. So let's meet in the middle on that one.

Well, I think it's interesting because people get really perplexed when they're not finding that passion, that inner drive for what they feel like they should be doing. But I like to remind people that if you look at notable figures like Brad Pitt and Abraham Lincoln, I'll just use those two as examples. Brad Pitt, long before he was an actor, was actually a limo driver. And then he was actually wearing a chicken suit at a fast food restaurant and doing odd jobs. And I think it was this struggle that he was going through that kind of convinced him to start taking some acting classes, which then led down the path to where he is now. And Abraham Lincoln, I think people remember him for the last years of his life. But for 80% to 85% of his life, he was going from odd job to odd job, even describing himself as a piece of driftwood just bouncing off the shores because he had no direction in life. But then when they both found it, you see how they double down, similar to you, and their life just explodes in fulfillment and success. So any thoughts on those two examples or other ones that you've seen that are similar to those?

I think they're common examples in the sense that most successful people have to spend a lot of time working out what they don't want before they work out what they do. And so when I left the banking industry, I went and worked on a tropical island for two years. But I also wrote in my application letter that I was willing to do anything because I knew that I just couldn't be happy in banking. I'd given it all the best I could, and so I was willing to take on any job just to give myself some thinking time and to get myself out of the secure banking career that everyone said I should have. Stayed in. That was a fantastic time. From that I ended up talking my way into volunteering and talking my way into the cocktail bar. So I became really confident working behind a bar. That got me work overseas, which then surprisingly led me to once I had the confidence to travel overseas as a backpacker because I had all those skills from the island which was Dunk Island, a beautiful island up on the Great Barrier Reef in Australia. Those hospitality skills gave me the confidence to go back packing over.

And it was through that time that I then took a live in job as a carer. And so that led to my full career to looking after dying people, which then enabled me to also involve my passion of writing and being a messenger for something more important than just trying to sell insurance to people, banking their paycheck in the banks. And so I think we have to trust that all of those roles that may seem mundane or seem like the wrong jobs, at least they're giving us time to clarify the way forward. And so at least they give you a way out of what you don't want. And it's okay as long as you don't see it as a failure. As long as you just see it as a stepping stone, then. I mean, there's no such thing as failure anyway. It's all just learning and part of the journey of life. I agree with what happened with Brad Pitt and Abraham Lincoln and it happened to me as well that I stepped out of that life that was expected of me, the banking career. And I went and washed dishes and it was hard work.

It was really greasy. Washing up and commercial kitchen in the tropics with like full on tropics with no air conditioning. It was hard physical work and lifting 20 liter buckets of water and oil. And we were fit 20 year olds in those days. Oh my goodness. But it played a role and I think that's what we have to do. Not see anything as going backwards or as a failure, but see it as a stepping stone.

Yes. Similar to you, I got into the corporate world myself, unintentionally because I came out of the military. I wanted to be an FBI agent. My class got recycled. By the time I was able to go, it was three and a half years later, almost four years. I had a child on the way. So I went down this path that I don't think I ever anticipated going down, which I think happens to a lot of people. And then you're ten years into it and you start looking back like, how did I get here? I was great at what I was doing, but I found that I wasn't inspired, and I was caught in this endless loop of meetings and HR issues and just going through the motions. And I think it's what Henry David Thoreau refers to when he says that we live lives of quiet desperation. And it intrigued me because in your own book, you write, I finally came to the conclusion I would have to eventually work from the heart as working only from the intellect left me empty and not satisfied. And I think that's exactly how I felt as well.

Why do you think so many people fall into this trap of what Henry David Thoreau calls quiet at desperation?

I think we can justify anything to ourselves, so we can come up with a million reasons to stay in the wrong job. And I think, well, of course there's responsibilities and the fear of what happens if I can't feed my child or what happens if I fail, and what are my family going to think of me, or what are my friends going to think of me? It's really just fear of failure. And. But one of the tools I use, I've always used to build my muscle of courage, which I actually think courage is my superpower now is to face the fact that you're going to die. And when you do that, you end up using death as a tool for living, because you realize how precious your time is and how every day it's reducing, your life is getting closer to the end, whether you've got five years or 50 years left, and everyone thinks they've got 50, but it doesn't work out that way if you look at the odds. And so by facing the fact and accepting the fact that we are going to die and every single one of us is going to die, then you treat your time with a lot more reverence and see it as sacred.

And when you do that, you find the courage to make changes, because you realize, okay, I do have these dreams. I may be caught in this ten year loop or whatever, but I do have these dreams, and I keep figuring that one day I'm going to get around to them. But you may not get that one day if you don't get on with it now. And it doesn't necessarily mean doing what I did and quitting the banking job and going and washing dishes on an island. It doesn't even mean quitting the big job to start with. For some people, it's about starting a side hustle or just creating three or four or 5 hours a week on the weekend or whatever, to start taking steps towards the other direction that your heart is calling. And at least then you know that you're giving it a go. And then there will come a time when it just pulls you so far forward that you find the courage to let go of the old job and take that risk. And no one successful has not taken risks. I mean, that's how life rewards us when we show our commitment and our bravery.

We have to go through hard times. Well, we don't have to, but most of us do go through a hard time because we're having to go through our resistance. We're having to eradicate our resistance. And that resistance is just fear. And the more love we can treat ourselves with and treat our time with, the more courage we feel find to actually make those lasting changes.

Ronnie, thank you for sharing that. I have, unfortunately, over the past few years, watching this firsthand, because my sister has pancreatic cancer. And it's just been the ups and downs of it initially being stage one, thinking that when she had the whipple procedure, that was going to give her this longing, maybe decade or longer elongation of her life. And then 18 months later, it came back, and now she's just continuing to try experimental trial after experimental trial. But in observing the way that she's living her life, it has completely changed. Meaning she prioritizes the most important things. She prioritizes friends, and she has moved anyone out who is not bringing her joy or fulfillment, fulfillment or positive, constructive feelings. Is this something, as you were doing palliative care, that you also saw some of the patients that you work with do as well? Concentrating on the most important things in their life and getting rid of the things that were ancillary.

Most of the people that I was looking after, John, were already at stage four, and so they were really just prioritizing their time in the sense that they wanted to be with family and friends. And a lot of the other people had fallen away. But I have witnessed it a lot in life since. And even during those years, of other people that I've been with, friends who have died and been diagnosed with terminal illness, and this was with the palliative patients, too, the nonsense falls away. And so even though the people I was looking after for those eight years were already dying and had gone home to die, they certainly didn't have the energy for nonsense. And so they weren't interested in small talk and. Or gossip or that sort of thing. They wanted to talk the real stuff and have quality time with the people they loved. And. But then I, like I say, I've also had quite a few friends who have died, and that's the moment that they are diagnosed with any sort of potentially terminal illness. And some have died and some have not, and they're still going years later, they do absolutely exercise their priorities.

They just say, what am I doing? And it's such a sad part of society, really, that it has to come to that before people take the courage to make the changes, because society sort of dictates that all these other things are important. But those things, when you're looking at life from a real perspective, a lot of those things, like career status and stuff like that, they're shallow. They're not. They're so irrelevant on the soul's journey and on the big picture. So it does take that and that unless we can face the fact that we're going to die before we're diagnosed with illness, and then we find the courage to make those changes. But even facing the fact that you're going to die before you're diagnosed with an illness, even that takes courage. And most people don't. Don't want to talk about the word deaf in any way whatsoever.

You would love the work that my friend Scott Simon is doing. He started a movement called scare your soul in a book on the same name. But what he really encourages his community to do is every week do a boundary expanding challenge that just makes you think differently about how you're approaching your life. And I do think courage is so important to being the fuel, along with our intrinsic motivation, that makes us take action to do things in different ways. So I wanted to just go into the book a little bit before I explore some other topics. But for those who are listening or watching, I'm holding up the book, the five regrets of the dying, which Bronnie is most well known for. It's sold over a million copies now. And if I have my math, that's been translated into about 40 different languages. As I understand it, this came out of your work in palliative care. But not only that. Many of the patients that you worked with asked that you share aspects of their life and their regrets and to pass it on. Is that kind of the correct understanding of some of the background behind it?

That's right, yes. Yeah. It was people realizing the importance of their mistakes and saying, please tell other people this, because I guess they wanted to leave some sort of legacy of importance, but proper significance, not just a legacy of financial significance for their family or whatever. But, yeah, there were a few patients that said, please don't let this anguish of mine and this lesson of mine be one that you can, that other people make. Please pass this on. And I just realized that I was being called to be the messenger for these regrets and or for regrets in general. And I guess my. From my perspective, witnessing their utter heartache and anguish is what gave me the courage to then honor those requests and write about it and pass it on. Because I'm the messenger. I'm not the one who was lying on my deathbed with that anguish and pain. So, yeah, it was horrific to see what had happened. And your friends, right, scare your soul. Because the only way we're not going to have regrets is to get scared and get on with it. Because if we don't want to be scared and we want to avoid fear, well, two things will happen.

We'll stay in our comfort zone, which means we won't grow. But the other thing is, life will throw us unexpected curveballs. Because you can't avoid your growth either way, you can't avoid it. So isn't it better to at least take some steps and get on with it and have a chance to see your dreams realized, rather than be throwing a curveball and then think, holy duly, how am I going to deal with this?

As I was researching you, I found that you and I had a couple things in common. I just published my first book, and I love how your story would call you an instant success. Yet it was 14 years or so before you actually wrote the book. But what you and I, in addition to that length of time, what you and I both had in common, is people see the book now and they think that the path to publishing it was an easy one. And what they don't know is all the rejections that I faced, even to get an agent. And once I got an agent, it was like every publisher in the world was turning me down, which was one of the most humility driving exercises I've ever been through. And I understand you were rejected yourself, if I have the number correct, by, like, 25 or 28 different publishers.

Yeah, 25 times. Yeah. I've come to two sort of conclusions on that. And one is that by being rejected, we get to show life, our commitment. We either quit or we keep going. And I think there does come a time, if we're going to really go for what we want, we have to prove our commitment. And so those rejections, they can be heartbreaking and certainly a lesson in humility, but they're also just one person's opinion or one team's opinion. And publishing is a business, so publishers need to. That's all it is. It's a business to make money. And I love my publishers, but it is. It's not a friendship, it's a business agreement. And so they need to see that you're a good investment. And so often, one of the reasons I was rejected, and this is through a publisher in Australia who I came to know the woman later, and she said, we don't have any space in our catalog for a book about death. And I said, well, it's more about life than death. And she said, no, no, we couldn't market this. And my publisher in Australia, Hay House, but the director of Hay House Australia, he's friends with that woman and he loves to wind her up all the time about it.

And so she was just coming at it from a business perspective, saying, it's not going to fit in our catalog. And, hey, House rejected it. My main publisher, they were one of the 25 rejections. And so maybe my proposal wasn't clear enough for them to see. But either way, I just thought, okay, well, I've been an independent singer songwriter along the way as well. I'll be an independent author. And so I put the book out independently. And then in the same 24 hours as I was becoming a mom and I was in labor, my article about the five regrets just went crazy. And then the book went. It had already been going crazy. And then the book got mentioned in the major UK newspaper and I was doing interviews while in labor. And within 24 hours of my daughter being born, I was offered a deal with Hay House. And my book went on to become. And Hay House is the global leader in personal growth books. And my book became the fastest foreign rights seller in Hay house history. And so that's after 25 rejections. So I wouldn't. If you're going through a lot of rejections, absolutely.

Think about, is there a reason? Could I improve this book? And I actually have a small book, independent book, I put out called from 25 rejections to a million readers. And what I do say in that is that be honest with yourself. Could your book be improved? And I think that five regrets could have been improved in the format it was. And it's. Since being improved, it's. There's a second edition. That yellow cover you have is the second edition, which is an improvement on the first. But beyond that, if it's the best that you can do at the time, then that's the best you can do. And so keep in mind, it's not personal, it is a business. And if your book's meant to get out there. And if you can show life the commitment, you'll find a way. Even if it's self publishing, which is no longer a category of failure like it was back in my day, if you self publish half the books, bookstores didn't even want to publish your book, whereas a lot of published authors are now choosing to self publish because the technology has advanced so far, and there's plenty of great ways to self publish and make some really substantial income from it.

So a lot of people are actually choosing to self publish now. So it really is a matter of perspective and how you want to frame the rejections. It may not fit one particular publisher or 25 publishers or whatever, but that does not mean there's not an audience for it, because clearly I've proved that wrong.

Yes, hay House is one of my favorite publishing houses. And I mean, I just look at you, Gabby Bernstein. I mean, so many of their authors are just incredible. I saw that they were quite acquired not too long ago by Penguin Random House, which will give them a larger footprint as well. So. And they just put out a great book by Jamie Kern Lima, which is skyrocketing as well. So I. Unfortunately, not only did I not get rejected, I didn't get a response at all from hay house. So I don't know which one is worse, but I always feel like if it's meant to be, it's meant to be, and the time will come, and I just keep working it.

Yeah, I can see you still taking it personally there, John, but please don't. I mean, there's a million reasons you may not have heard back, and it's probably got nothing to do with the quality of your book. It was in it. The company was in a transition. They may not get back to everyone now. I mean, I had an agent who tried. 24 of my 25 rejections were through an agent. And even then, she went into bat for me, a great woman, and even then, I didn't have success. But that is no reflection of the quality of your work. It just means it hasn't found its place within a publishing house at this time.

Yeah, no, I mean, you're bringing up something very important. They're very concerned about your overall platform, because I think the thing that people don't understand is, in the publishing business, the author is the one who has to do all the legwork to get the book out there. And most of the houses are completely downsizing their promotional staffs unless you're one of their top 5% authors and you're Susan Kane or Dan Pink, they'll support you. But other than that, almost every author I know is having to get their own publicity team to help support it. So I don't take it personally. And the more I learn about the industry, it was just shocking for me to go through the process.

Sure. Especially when you create a work of art and everything. I'll just quickly tell you. Do you know Wayne Dyer's story about him getting published? He was rejected, and so he did a tour with his boot full of books and went into, went all over America and went into all the bookstores and said, do you have Wayne Dyer's book? And this is before the Internet, so they couldn't look up that it was him. And they're like, no. And he's like, oh, it's a fantastic book. Like, you really should order it in. Can you order it in? And it's something along these lines. And so they'd order it in and he'd go and buy them all, which would then make them order more. And so he ended up having this boot full of books that he started giving out to fans when they would write in and say, well, your second or third book has changed my life. He would send them a copy of those first books that he had bought himself just to get the book noticed by booksellers. So then they would order enough, and once they were ordering enough, then obviously that leads to publishing and all sorts of things.

He had a huge career in book publishing, so he actually just did the legwork and went and appeared in all these bookshops and asked for his book. And when they didn't have it, they'd order it. He'd buy them all and say, it's such a good book. I'm buying it all for my friends. And so then the bookstore would order more copies in for the customers.

I love the story of Robin Sharma, too, who I think he had self published the book, or it was a very small publishing house that did it, and it wasn't selling at all. And he happened to be in the bookstore signing copies of it when a gentleman came in and asked him about the book, and he started to talk to him about it, and it was his book, something about the Ferrari. And I think he's with Hachette or Harper, but whoever it was, the president of the publisher, and it just happened to be the right timing, and off it went.

Yeah, there's a lot in readiness and timing, but it also comes back to what you said before about taking action. So he was out there taking action, signing books, if he was sitting at home not taking action, he wouldn't have got that opportunity.

You're absolutely correct about that. I want to go down this path a little bit about taking action because one of the main things that I talk about in the show is the power of choice. And so much of our life is dictated, I think all our life is by the choices we make. And it's the small, what I call micro choices that end up determining the path of our lives. And I believe you share the same viewpoint. Can you discuss your thoughts on it?

Yeah, absolutely. It all comes down to choice. We're completely on the same page there because every choice we make, whether we want to spend time with a friend who's going to bring us down or whether we're going to go and hang out with a group of people that will leave us inspired, that's going to shape how our day turns out. That's going to shape how our energy levels are. That's going to shape how we show up at home. That's going to shape how we sleep. It's going to shape how we wake up the next morning. Every single choice we make has an on flow effect, has a ripple effect. And I completely agree with you. Every choice, big or small, and we think that the big ones are the ones that actually shape our lives. But it's the everyday. Well, what you just said about the micro macro ones, that it's those small choices that build up over time that shape our lives. It's got very little to do with the huge choices because it's those small choices that lead us into readiness for the big choices anyway.

Yeah, I refer to them as the choices we make and the transition points in life because a lot of people do think it's the big things that really make the most, and it's not. It's these things that happen along the transitions between the big ones. And the way I liken it is when I was in the military and we were going on an operation, oftentimes when we face the biggest issues on an op, it wasn't in the heat of the op itself. It was either going to or coming back from it. When you're either a little bit off guard or you're thinking so far ahead, you're not in the moment at that time. And that's when you get caught off guard. And I think so oftentimes we look forward to the big things that we don't think about the incremental steps that we're taking on along the way to get there and being intentional about it.

Yeah. And it's not just the choices. It's the moments as well. You know, a lot of life can be lived for these big moments, but the big moments are probably five or six big moments in your life. And so a lot of people are striving for those big moments and making all their choices for these big things, and they're missing life in the process, because life is happening now, and it's in the small moments and the small choices. And the more present you can be, the more mindful you can be about life right now, then the more you're actually going to enjoy your life as it's unfolding and not end up at the end and think, oh, I missed my life. I've got a lot of regrets here. And so it's those small choices, but it's also the small moments that make life rich.

Bronnie, before I ask you this next question, I wanted to understand if you were familiar with the work of psychologist Tom Gilovich.

No.

So, Tom is a Cornell University psychologist. He's now in his seventies. And after your book came out, he and his team interviewed thousands and thousands of people who were in their, I guess you could say, third component of life. Let's just say they were 60 and up, and they ended up asking them about the biggest regrets they had in life. And what's interesting to me is their research coincided with your book in many ways. And the number one regret, which came up 76% of the time, was that it wasn't the mistakes that people made in life that haunted them. It was the what ifs, the should haves. It was the lasting regrets that stem from not pursuing becoming our ideal selves and rather deciding that we have to chase our odd self and meet the obligations that we feel are thrown upon us. And this is really similar to the first regret of the dying that you talk about in the book. And I was hoping through that lens, you might be able to discuss this interplay about living a life true to our deepest aspirations.

I think that research, along with my experience, and mine, wasn't formal research. Mine was just lived, experienced by the bedsides of dying people and recognizing common themes. But they both come down to courage, and it all comes down to courage. All of the regrets, any regret you're going to have will come down to a lack of courage. And it just means you've given fear more power than it deserves. And fear has a place in a primal way to protect us, but it doesn't have a place in holding us back from our dreams. So, absolutely, I agree with that research, because what I witnessed was always about a lack of courage, like in not living a life true to yourself. It means that you haven't had the courage to speak up, take action, be kind enough to yourself to honor your own dreams as well. And if you can see, recognize that something as heartbreaking and huge as lying on your deathbed with regrets, when you can recognize that it really does just come down to courage or a lack of courage, it can help you understand the importance of courage and courageous action. Courage is not enough.

You've got to take the action with it. It's got to be supported. The action has to be supported by courage. If you recognize that you have the power to take courageous action, then you're heading down a completely different road. And even if it doesn't turn out exactly as you'd hoped, because it really does, it often turns out even better than you've hoped. And the things you learn about yourself on the way just turn you into such a more powerful person and more grounded in your sense of self. And that in itself is a massive reward for courage, to know yourself on that level and know your potential and know that even if things scare you, you're still going to get on with it, because each act of courage has rewarded you with that sense of self and the satisfaction that you had a go. And I think that as ever expanding beings, we'll probably never see every single dream realized. Also, some people are happy with one or two big dreams, and then they've ticked off their list and they're fine with that. But I think for those of us who are driven by courageous action, we'll probably never see every single dream realized because will still be dreaming when we're 95 or, you know, at what, you know, whatever age.

And so I think that those regrets that have been studied and the regrets that I witnessed, they all come down to courage, but they are all regrets that can be avoided simply by facing your fear, daring to grow through your healing and your resistance. And it is scary, and it's brings up a lot of primal wounds and a lot of old beliefs from your childhood that need healing. But having done that myself repeatedly, I can only say the freedom that comes on the other side is worth every amount of anguish and pain that you've got to go through. And it certainly is never going to be as difficult as lying on your deathbed with the regret of not having tried.

Yeah. And to me, it's that. And the other thing that I found is profound fulfillment. Now, that I've shifted my work so that it's really about helping others and helping others to also become their best that they can possibly be. It's really brought so much more contentment in everything I do. And I wanted to talk to you a little bit about learning from what happens in our past. In the book you write, working through my own stuff was teaching me gifts and learning. I was actually coming to find a lot of blessings through my past. Strength, forgiveness, compassion, kindness, and many other lessons had been offered to me through my circumstances, which shaped me into a better person every day through that passage. Can you elaborate on why confronting, embracing our, our past is critical to personal growth? And your advice for someone in approaching this?

Well, all of us have ended up in a family that's imperfect. Even our children have ended up in a family that's imperfect. And every generation evolves more and heals more than the previous generation. You look at the kids coming through today, they're so much wiser than my generation. I'm Generation X. And I think that we have to go back to heal in order to find out who we really are. Because who we become as young adults is really just a product of our conditioning. And there's not a lot of leeway and freedom to truly know yourself in those earlier years because you're still living under your parents roof or you're influencing adults roof. And it's really not until you start stepping away from that and seeing that some of those beliefs and patterns and behaviors are not actually yours. They're family beliefs and behaviors, and they don't necessarily fit you. They're probably the main instigators of what brings unhappiness. And so it is essential to go back and remember who you were before all of that. And that takes a lot of work and a lot of healing, and it's probably a lifetime process, in a way, but the freedom that comes from that is absolutely worth it.

And so I think that in order to know our full potential, even if we've had very little trauma in our upbringing, and say, you've had very supportive parents and you've had a happy life and you can't really fault your parents efforts, and this does happen sometimes. There's children that come through that, and still, as young adults, take their own lives, and yet they've been raised with nothing but love. But there's a buddhist word called sankaras, and it means reactions. And so you can have an incident happen in a family, and in that family say, you know, you've got three or five. Say, for example, there's five siblings. And of those five, three nights sort of never think about that incident again. And two might process it in completely different ways to each other. And one of them may carry that incident, their framing of that incident. They may carry that as a trauma right up until they're ready to heal, or if they don't have the courage to heal right through to their death. And so there's no guarantee that even perfect parents are not going to trigger some sort of reaction in a child.

And same goes for those who are raised in dysfunctional families. My dad was an alcoholic and quite a volatile alcoholic, and I can recognize in hindsight, his brokenness and the ancestral pain that was handed down and just how little love he received as a child. So of course he was going to be broken. And as the child who was most like him, I triggered a lot of that for him. He was highly sensitive, highly creative, but he couldn't honor that. He had to give up his music to raise us kids. And so for me, I copped a pretty hard childhood and a shocking childhood, really. But it taught me compassion and forgiveness. It also taught me who I didn't want to be and what I wanted to heal in the family patterns. And I just think that we can't be the, and I hate to use these words, the best version, because it's just such a cliched, sort of overused term, the best version of ourselves. But we can't reach our potential as who we're here to be if we don't venture back into the pain and loosen it up and let it out, because it will hold us back forever otherwise.

I'm glad you ended up bringing up topic of Buddhism, because the person I was going to bring up next is a Buddhist. Bob Waldinger wrote a great book last year called the good Life, and he currently leads the Harvard study of adult aging, which revealed that our relationships have the biggest factor in us feeling we actually have a good life. Which reflects on one of the regrets that you outline in the book. I wish I'd stayed in touch with my friends. I want to explore this through a different lens. In the book, you share the story of Doris's experience with loneliness, which is something that has become a societal epidemic across all countries. And I think we all now have these busy lives, and we're not doing as good a job, even with social media, of cultivating meaningful relationships. In fact, I think in some ways it hinders them. What is some of the observations that you had by observing the dying and what would be some of your recommendations, as people are living out their lives on how they start thinking about loneliness, so that they avoid this emptiness that can really get into the hearts and destroy us both mentally and physically?

Well, in looking after the dying people, it was obvious that their joy was in connection, real life connection. They had plenty of time for sleep because that's all they could do, really, and to sleep and have reflection. But the joy that they held onto from their visitors was just beautiful. And it was obvious that real life connection is a source of joy. And I have a friend called Marcus Pierce and he has a book called your exceptional life. And he's basically a longevity coach. And what the research he's done as well is that it's not about, I mean, it's good to eat healthy and everything else, but he always says it's not about your diet or how many ice baths you take or everything else. It's much more about social connection, real life connection. I'm actually seeing him tomorrow. And it's very easy with social media to stay in touch with your friends, which was one of the regrets that the dying had, that they wish they had stayed in touch with their friends. But a lot of that was before social media became so prevalent in everyday life, those years were. And so it's very easy to stay in touch with your friends through social media or a quick dm on messenger or whatever, or even a quick text.

But it's nothing compared to a real life hug connection, share food, that sort of thing. And even a phone call with face to face, a voice to voice phone call. So I have. Australia is a big country, I have friends interstate who I can't see regularly. But to have a real life phone call every six months brings us up to date on each other and always leaves us feeling better. So I think that in terms of a quality life and to address loneliness, we actually need to get off social media more. And social media is positive in a lot of ways. I've made real life friendships through connections initially made on social media. And it brings your community to you, and there's a lot of positives, but none will ever be as beautiful as real life connection. And so if someone's going through loneliness, it's probably the least, the worst time to feel like getting out. Because when you are lonely, you just are not in the mood for socializing or you're not always capable of socializing, but that's where you have to have the courage and push through that resistance. And it may mean joining a club or forming a book club that meets in person once a month or something like that, reconnecting with old friends, joining a sports club or a walking group.

There's always opportunities and there's always excuses for. But you either live in the excuses, or you push through the fear and say, I'm worth more than this. I want to have a laugh today, or I want to smile, or I want to have a conversation with a stranger today and just find a way to make that happen. Whether it's a shop assistant who serves you, or however it has to happen, push through that fear. And it is scary putting yourself out there, especially if you've being lonely for a long time and isolated for a long time. But I mean, it affects health on so many levels. All this, the proper research is showing that loneliness isn't just about breaking your own heart, it affects your health on so many levels. And so for our well being, but also for our reverence of this gift of life we've got, it's really important to get out socially and connect with people. And it's okay if some of those people are not your people. They play the role they're meant to. But there are good people wanting to meet other good people out there. And so it's our job to make sure we're out there to do that.

And Bronny, before I get into these other questions, do you have time for two more questions?

Absolutely, John. It's a nice conversation. I'm enjoying it.

Ronnie, I wanted to jump into your newer book, Bloom, and unfortunately, I can't share it because I bought a kindle version of it. But one of the things you really go into it discussing is our upper limit capacity. And I think we all have this internal thermostat that regulates the amount of love, success, creativity, what have you, that we permit ourselves to experience. And often when we surpass the set point, which is often dictated by what you talked about earlier with your father, things that happened in our past, we end up self sabotaging ourselves. Can you explain from your perspective, why we do this and how it ends up affecting our growth and our happiness?

I think sabotage is a primal thing. It comes down to our sense of belonging and our need for belonging. And so if we outgrow the family dynamic, or dare to step outside of the family dynamic, we risk losing that sense of belonging. Even if that sense of belonging was never that nurturing. There's something primal within us that needs to find the sense of belonging. And so, yeah, as I write about in bloom, that when my daughter was born. So I was really blessed. I conceived naturally at 44 and became a first time. I'm at 45. Healthy pregnancy, healthy baby. I did. My child's father and I separated during that pregnancy, during that time. But I was blessed with a beautiful baby in the 24 hours that she was born. I was offered the international publishing deal with Hay House. So they were two hugely wonderful things to happen. Within a week of that, I was also diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis. And so you could look at that and just say, oh, well, you're unlucky. You pushed your health a bit far. You're too old to become a mom, whatever. But on a growth level, I can recognize easily how I was scared to have that much good fortune in my family dynamics because sort of being mocked and ridiculed was a part of the family dynamic.

And so if I was proving them wrong, I was. On some level, I was scared of the attacks that would come from that. And so by getting a disease that was just so horrific, when it first set in, no one was attacking me about the book or about the book success or the baby, and they just let me be. I think that this is something I thought about when you mentioned your sister's health journey as well, that. I don't know who said it first, but sometimes the disease is the healing. It's not always about healing the disease. Sometimes the disease is the healing. And I think that the disease that I've learned to live with has healed me on so many amazing levels. But I do believe that we sabotage ourselves, often unconsciously, probably 99% of the time unconsciously, because why would we do it otherwise? We do it because of a sense of belonging and. And that need for approval and to be loved within our family unit or within our social tribe. And we don't want to outgrow that and. But we have to outgrow it all because otherwise we're going to be held back and we're never going to know not only our potential, but we're never truly going to know ourselves as who we are.

Yeah, well, no, I agree with you. And I read yours, and then I also read gay Hendricks book, which I have here called the big Leap.

That's fantastic. Yeah, that's a life changer.

And in it, he writes that the upper limit problem cannot be resolved through conventional problem solving methods, such as acquiring new information. Instead, it requires a focused awareness, something that I call conscious engagement, to uncover and address the false foundation supporting it. Do you concur with what he says?

Yeah, I do. I think that it's all well and good to say, I'm going to get through this. I am going to break through this upper limit and jump into that bigger fishbowl goldfish bowl, as his book cover shows. But it's not just a matter of saying it or a conscious thing like, okay, I'm going to do it, and you just do it. It takes healing. It takes massive healing. And so we can choose it consciously, but the work we have to do to break through that upper limit is really tapping into the unconscious and healing that, you know, Ronnie, the last thing.

I wanted to ask you about, which is something that I'm really focused on, is the topic of mattering. I look at all these feelings that people have globally and the mental health issues, etcetera, and I think a lot of it comes down to so many of us are waking up in the morning and we don't feel like our lives hold significance either through our work. It feels unfulfilled, or our relationships. What have you. Considering your experiences and insights into the different lives of the dying, how do you think the need to matter and to be valued influences the choices that people make throughout their lives? And how might this relate to common regrets that you documented in your book?

I think the need to matter is huge, but I do also think it's distorted. So it all comes down to society's interpretation of success that a lot of people feel they don't matter if they're not successful in their work or something like that. But if you can reframe it, then you're not going to have a regret, because you realize that you do matter, no matter what you do. I think the best way to understand that you do matter is if you've had the courage to follow your heart, then the heart always guides us to serve in one way or another. And so if that's the case, then you matter. So an example is there was this lovely elderly lady called Yvonne. And I was living over in Perth at the time, and I was in a banking job, and I hated it. It was around the time I did that list from Chucky Gawain's book. And it was a long time ago, and I was really searching for purpose. And certainly I didn't feel like I mattered at all in the banking industry. And I may have mattered to the friends I had lunch with and that sort of thing, but I just didn't feel my heart was in it.

So every day I used to, I was in the dregs of routine for a job I hated. But I would walk past Yvonne's garden, and she had long, long white hair down to her. Her backside. And she'd wear it up and twist it up in a bun. And she had the most beautiful flower garden. And every morning at 735 or something, I would walk past her place and she would be out in the garden and we'd stop. At first it was just a little bit of hello. And then one day, I put a note in her mailbox and said how much I loved her garden and how much it lifted my morning. And then one day we got chatting and she realized it was me and we became friends. And she showed me then her back garden, which I didn't even know existed. I think about her often in terms of what matters. And it's very easy to define our importance based on society's version of success. But that isn't what makes us matter. It really isn't. I mean, if we're following our heart, it may guide us into a public role where we serve publicly, like you and I are doing.

But mums matter. I'm a mom. I'm a single mom. And I spend a lot more time in motherhood than I do in my professional career because I want to be present for my child and I want her to leave the family nest with the confidence to be herself. So for me, that work matters much more than this work, even as much as I'm grateful for this work. And I enjoy this work, and I'm honored by it. So I think it's about reframing. Whether you how, like, why you think you don't matter and how you think you could matter. And if you're doing that, if you're following your heart and your heart calls you to grow a garden, that is your act of service. That is your service. Or becoming a better cook and feeding your kids healthy food, that is service. And so if you have the courage to follow your heart, no matter what it looks like, regardless of how it's perceived by others, you know your heart's own truth, the heart's voice, which is your intuition and your yearnings. If you have the courage to honor those, then you matter. You already matter.

Because whatever your heart is going to call you to do, even if it's just to go traveling, well, you're going to inspire someone else to do that who hasn't got the guts to do it. So then you're going to. You're not going to create that regret. So I really think, John, that it's just a case of reframing how you matter in order to find peace with it, because we all matter. We all matter. And those that feel they don't, maybe just a little bit disconnected from their heart at the moment or a little bit scared to act on it.

I completely agree with you. And it's something that I try to keep putting out there is that we all have significance in the world. Every one of us matters in very big ways. And I think it's such an important message to get out. Well, Bronny, I so appreciate you being here today. Can you share with the audience how, if they want to learn more about you, obviously I'll put the books in the show notes. What other ways can they connect with you?

Well, Bronnie Ware is my mothership, so it's Bonnie with an r in it. Bronnie and then Ware like Warehouse, w a R E. Bronnie ware.com. And I also write a weekly story on Substack, which is life and wonder with Bronnie Ware. But there's links via bronnieware.com. I'm on social media. I have a bit of a vlog for a wild acreage that I bought and put a tiny home on, and I'm all over the place, but not hugely. I don't have for the level of publicity my books have. I don't have a huge presence on social media because it's never been my priority. I value my audience, but I also value my time and my life. And so I spend much more time offline than on. Yeah.

Ronnie, thank you so much for being here. It was such an amazing honor and I'm so glad we can bring this episode to our audience.

Thank you, John. You're a lovely host and I really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you.

What an incredible honor that was to interview Bronnie Ware on Passion struck, someone I've wanted on this show for such a long time, and links to all things Bronnie are in the show notes. Please use the links in the show notes to purchase any of the guests that we feature here on the show. Videos are on YouTube, both our main channel at Johnr Miles and our clips channel at Passion struck clips. Please go check it out and subscribe and join over 250,000 other subscribers. Advertiser deals and discount codes are in one convenient place@passionstruck.com. Deals please consider supporting those who support the show. If you want to expand your courage muscle and you want to start signing up for the passion struck weekly challenge, then please consider joining our newsletter, which is entitled Live intentionally and you can do that at either passionstruck.com or johnrmiles.com dot. And if you want to know more about the show, have more inspirational content, then follow me on all the social platforms at John R. Miles. And if you want to know how I book amazing guests like Bronnie Ware on this podcast, it's because of my network. Go out there and build yours before you need it.

You're about to hear a preview of the Passion Struck podcast interview that I did with Jerry Hussey, Ireland's premier peak performance coach. In this inspiring episode of Passion Struck, Jerry shares his journey from preparing Olympic athletes on the world stage to writing his acclaimed books, awaken your power within and the freedom within. His insights into self discovery and the art of living fully are not just for elite athletes, but anyone who's looking to overcome adversity and to harness their infinite potential.

I want you to ask yourself a question. Are you living life from a place of fear or a place of love? And now that you see the way you're living your life, your life style, the style in which you're living your life, ask yourself, if nothing changes, if you continue to live your life the way you're living, if you continue to eat the food you're eating, if you continue to say the things to yourself that you say, if you continue in the same way, what does that look like in 15 to 20 years time? What does it look like in gut health? What does it look like in mental health? What does it look like in relationship? And if that's a picture that inspires you and makes you very happy, fantastic. Change nothing. If it's not a picture, the good news is tiny changes every day can change that picture completely.

Remember that we rise by lifting others. So share the show with those that you love and care about. And if you know someone who could use the inspiration that Bronnie shared on today's episode, then definitely share it with.

Someone that you care about.

In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so that you can live what you listen. Until next time, go out there and become passion struck.