Hi, guys. It's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it.

Before we dive into today's episode, I first want to thank our sponsor, Therisage. Their Tri-Light Panel has become my favorite biohacking thing for healing my body. It's a portable red light panel that I simply cannot live without. I literally bring it with me everywhere I go, and I personally use their red light therapy to help reduce inflammations in places in my body where, honestly, I have pain. You can use it on a sore back, stomach cramps, shoulder, ankle. Red light therapy is my go-to. Plus, it also has amazing anti-aging benefits, including reducing signs of fine lines and wrinkles on your face, which I also use it for. I personally use Therassage Tri-Light everywhere all the time. It's small, it's affordable, it's portable, and it's really effective. Head over to therassage. Com right now and use code B BOLD for 15% off. This code will work site-wide. Again, head over to therasage, T-H-H-E-R-A-S-A-G-E. Com, and use code B-BOLD for 15% off. This code will work site-wide. Again, head over to therassage. Com C-H-E-R-A-S-A-G-E. Com, and use code Be Bold for 15% off any of their products. All right, guys, this is a fun episode we're doing today because I have Sarah Janehoe, otherwise known as Sarah Jane, that's how you go by, who wrote a book called Mind Your Manners.

She has the same name for her Netflix show, which is now not going into season 2.

We don't know yet. You don't know yet. There's only been season 1.

There's only been season 1. But she is a renowned etiquette expert. I can't wait to ask you my questions. We are going to get really into all stuff. Sarah Sanku, thank you so much for being on this podcast.

Thank you for having me. I love talking about habits and hustle.

Well, I'm glad because we're going to be talking all about habits and hustle, but how to do it properly. I mean, I got to tell you, I'm actually nervous to have you on. I told you that when you walked in because I don't know. I think maybe I need to hire you because there's a couple of areas of my life that probably I'm not the most groomed and well, my etiquette may be a little bit lacking. So this could be- Can't wait to find out.

Yeah. Well, there you go.

First question I have is, give me your background. What makes you an expert in etiquette? Because do you go to school for that? I know that you created a school for it, but how do we know? Why is it what you say is the right way?

Yeah, that's a great question. So by the age of 14 years old, I'd grown up in Papua New Guinea, the UK, Hong Kong, and Exeter, New Hampshire, because I went to boarding school at Phillips Exeter. And so I was very much a third-culture kid. I was always between really different different cultures and trying to figure out how to fit in, which is the one thing about being human, human connection and belonging. And so it was very much a survival tool for me to be in different microcultures and figure out, Okay, how do I How do I fit in? What are the codes of conduct here? How are people dressed? What is the slang used? And later on, when I graduated from Harvard Business School in 2012, well, first I went to a Swiss finishing school, which was where women used to go back in the day because we didn't have the opportunity to go to college. And so women would finish their education at these finishing schools. It was mostly in Europe, but in America, you have charm school. You have etiquette schools very much in America, too, back in the day. And now, women are emancipated, women can vote, women go to university.

So we no longer go to these finishing schools. But for me, going to finishing school and starting a finishing school in China for women, because we don't do kids, we do adult women, It was an opportunity I wanted to combine what I was passionate about with what I felt was a market need, because no other country has been like China, where they've gone through so much change in such a short amount of time. When you think about the industrial revolution, that alone took 150 years to play out in Europe. And then you have the services revolution, the technological revolution. In China, you've had industrial services technological in 30 years. So that's a huge amount of change in a really short amount of time because China only opened up with economic reforms in 1978. So you have all these people with newfound riches, but then trying to figure out how to navigate the world with confidence. And for me, when I was growing up, my mother was very much a... She was a role model and she was always hosting in the house, creating magical moments between friends. Christmas would be dozens of people at our house.

And then I lost her to cancer when I was 21 years old, and my life really changed. I'm an only child. My dad didn't entertain in the same way on his own. And my home went from being really warm and loving and busy to very cold and lonely and empty until I realized, because I'm a Sagittarius and I love being with friends and organizing social events, I realized I could continue her legacy in something that I also enjoy doing with etiquette. And so that's why in 2012, I moved to Beijing and I founded my etiquette school.

Wow. So let me ask you because you were saying something that was interesting. So the US or North America has charm schools, the European version would be considered finishing schools. This is actually very timely because some very close friends of mine are from... I have a lot of friends from London, and they are much This one girl, her name's Amanda. I'm going to give her a shout out. She is all about etiquette and manners, and she has impeccable manners, and she always teases me about certain things. I find it's a much It's a very European thing. I haven't seen that same type of- Well, you wouldn't in California.

Let me just put it this way.

You wouldn't in California? Yeah.

So it's very culture-based, isn't it?

Well, you tell me, you said something. Yeah.

So California is very casual. It's convenient. It's casual. It doesn't have the same depth of history as New England. Whereas New England and then the South. So the South is a lot of focus on charm school. That was a big thing. And débutants coming out, their debut into society. So America is so big that you're right. It is very culturally different.

So right. So now that you said that, you're right. Because, again, my friends who are very Southern, their children say, Miss Jennifer. It's true. It's very specific to the culture and where you actually live. So then let's say, is it also... I guess it's not just a socioeconomic thing, because in itself, no matter where you are socioeconomically, your manners and the way you speak to people and how you address people is very different than how you would, like you said, in California or in different cultures. So that is actually quite interesting.

But back in the day, it would be. So for example, in Europe, if you're from a good family, then you'd be sent to... Actually, if you're a man, you'd be sent on a grand tour of Europe to go study the arts, to go see see, let's say, to go to Italy, to go to Greece, to go here and there to finish your education. Women would be sent to finishing schools to prepare them for life as a hostess. Princess Diana, for example, went to finishing school in Switzerland.

Right. And so what do you learn there? Give me an example of what did they teach you? Give me a day in the life of what you do.

Yeah. So I was there for a little bit. It's two months, a little over two months. And it's a very intensive course schedule. From morning till late afternoon. The course itself is called the Hostess Course, and there were a lot of modules and everything from dining to dressing to table conversation, meetings and introductions. A lot of country learnings because etiquette is contextual. So there's no right or wrong in etiquette. It really is contextual. It depends on where you are, who you're with. For example, let's say if I give a gift to you and we're in the West, you would open the gift in front of me to show to the gift. You would read the note in front of me. You would make a big fuss of it and show gratitude. Now, in Asia, if I gave you a gift, and if you opened it up straight away, it would show greediness and that you have no self control. So in Asia, if I receive a gift, I put it aside. I don't make a fuss of it. Just put it aside. And then maybe on my own is when I'll open it up. And then later on, then I'll thank the person who gave it to me.

Do they teach you in finishing school context like that? So they'll say, In the West, this is what happens. In Asia, this is what happens. Do they break it down?

So when I went to Swiss Finishing School in Switzerland, it was very European-based. But they would talk about different countries on their own, so they'd be country modules. Now, I actually tweaked a lot of the core schedule for my local market for China. Everything we teach, we do what you just asked about, which is a Chinese and Western comparison. And because I spent my life being between both extremely different cultures, it comes very naturally for me to say, Well, this is how it's done in China, how we do it in China. This is how we done in the UK or in Europe. And this is how it's done in America.

But do people ever get... I joked around, I got nervous when I am nervous because even the way you're sitting and the way you're so polite and you know your Ps and Qs, it makes the other person feel more uncomfortable. Does anyone ever get uncomfortable with you? So here's the thing.

If you're nervous around me, then I'm doing something wrong.

I'm not nervous around you, actually. That's what that's funny, though. You're not making me nervous. It's just the fact that you have that title in front of your name.

Yes. Because to me, etiquette, and this is how I'm trying to redefine etiquette. People think that etiquette is... They think it's very traditional, that it should be told by a strict middle-aged lady with her hair in a bun, something, and wearing a suit. And to me, etiquette is just about... It's about putting people around you at ease. That is really what the spirit of etiquette is, that people feel comfortable around you, and then you feel comfortable around them. And that goes again back to human connection, human belonging, which is what makes us human.

Because it's funny, because when you think about it, the people who have the best manners, the most highly, I guess, they come across conservative or much more stuffy than the average person, right? So there has to be a good balance of understanding human nature and EQ, like having a good EQ to know how to make the other person feel comfortable.

Yes, exactly. Eq and knowing how to read the air is what I talk about in my book. When you go into a room and when you meet a new person, you can pick up on the vibes, I guess, is what you'd say in American culture. In China, we'd call it the qi, qi, the energy. We read energy. And so even for me, let's say, if we're sitting in a dining table, I'm speaking with you like this, actually out of this corner of my eye, I can see who's bored, who's shy, who's playing on their phone, who needs a top up for their wine glass, all these things. So having that self-awareness and sensitivity. And I think part of it is also The reason why I decided to target adults for my finishing school is because I believe that it begins with upbringing. And the most beautiful gift a parent can give their child is good manners.

I totally agree. I think one of the ugliest things is when a child has bad manners and they're at the table manners. I always notice those things. As I joke around about myself, I'm very cognizant of those things for my own children because it doesn't present well. It says a lot about the person and then the individual individual. But sometimes, don't you have to start young? Because if you're starting at... You're saying you're starting with young adults, so then they can teach their children, right?

Actually, I start with mothers. Really? Yeah. So my finishing school, it's for ladies, and many are mothers. So 90% of my clients are mothers.

So they can then teach their children, right?

Because they want to be role models for their children. And to me, that is the most important thing. And I do have some young adults. Actually, sometimes I have mothers and daughters because I have a hostess course for married women and a débutant course for unmarried women. So sometimes I'll have a mother in hostess and then her daughter in my débutant class.

I'm so curious about this. Okay, so you still have this finishing school in China?

Yes.

Okay. How many people are enrolled? How long is the course? Is it a year? Do they live there? Not live there.

Yeah. Okay, so I opened my Beijing school in 2013, followed by a Shanghai school in 2015. So at some point, I was between two cities. My co founder, Rebecca, who's my co founder for my finishing school to this day. She's based in Beijing. Actually, she does because now I'm traveling a lot, and she does most of the teaching now. During COVID, China had pretty stringent lockdowns. And during that time, it was just impossible to hold a class to teach. I closed down both physical schools. And now, actually, what we do now is whenever we have classes, we have them in the Waldorf Astoria in Shanghai, for example, or we work with different... We'll just choose different venues and different hotels to hold our courses in.

And how long is course?

Well, the Hostess course is 10 days long.

Oh, okay.

Yeah. And then the D'Hébuton course is eight days long. But we also have weekend courses. And we also work with a lot of luxury brands to hold etiquette workshops for their VIPs, so for their customers.

I love this. So you teach, would you do how to set a table? Absolutely, we do. What are the top?

British Offeringun tea. Table Manners is the most popular and most practical course.

Yeah, I would imagine.

Because in China, everybody Everybody uses chopsticks. And even Western dining is a really new concept. Really? That really just came about. I mean, in the '90s, it was basically no Western restaurants in China. And then in the 2000s, a couple started springing up. Now, Every Michelin chef is going to China.

Yes, I agree with you, and I know that to be true. What I actually love about how you present or how you... Even in your book, it's to me like a coffee table book, where you don't have to read it all at once. It's an easy read, and there's so many great tips. There's a dating section, there's a table manner, there's different sections. So you can just pull and just read a little bit and then put it down and go back. It's not sequential like that, right?

Exactly. And it's a combination of anecdotes, a lot of anecdotes. A lot of anecdotes. Each section is maybe one to two pages.

Exactly. And it's like I said, an easier read. So I want to ask you a few questions, okay? Or go through a couple of things I thought were very interesting. Let's just talk about, you said in the book, it takes eight positive encounters to change someone's negative impression of you. So can you just talk about that? And who figured that out? How do you know this to be true? Please Can you please just expand on that.

Well, we need to dial it back to first impressions. And first impressions, some research says two minutes, some research says not even a second. So somebody is forming a first impression of you within in a second of seeing you. So that's before you even speak, before you say anything. And usually, we want to make good first impressions. That's why it's so important. And whenever we make a negative, let's say if somebody forms a negative impression of us, then it takes... It's varying. So some people have said it takes a certain number of hours. But generally speaking, everybody points to some Harvard research study that doesn't really exist, that I haven't been able to find. But generally speaking, they say it takes eight positive encounters to change your mind of somebody's negative impression of you. So if you know that, then it's much better to make a good first impression rather than to make a bad impression and then have to work really hard to turn that around.

Well, I thought also, you talk about, and this is... I think a lot of it also, if you have a higher EQ and you are street smart, you know this instinctually, but it's a great reminder. But your last impression is actually more important than your first impression, because that's what you leave with. And it's true, because when you think about it, no matter how much great stuff you've done, it's always the last thing that people always remember. I think, and there's also a name for it, and I don't remember that. Oh, yeah. What was it? Oh, gosh. The law of the Lost.

The recency effect.

The recency effect. And so to me... Let's talk about that, because I I think people don't sometimes remember that to be true.

Yeah. It's funny. You could have been performing consistently well at work, for example. If you screw up the most recent project, then that's the recency effect, right? In people's minds, Okay, well, but she screwed up the last project. So the way to work around that is to then actively make good on a lot of projects in order to move move the bad project further down the line.

Well, the way I see it is that that would be the eight positive encounters or positive things. You have to work, like you said, extra, extra hard to compensate for those things.

Absolutely.

But I always think about that. If I'm leaving a party or a meeting, yes, the first impression, of course, that people have, they automatically have a thought of who you are. But if you leave strong, I think that That's more important because an eye contact to me is really important.

Yeah. And you besides, how many young people these days eye contact, it's an issue.

Well, how can you even teach etiquette and manners to a generation when they're not even socializing anymore. They're always on their phone. Everything is technology-driven. They've lost even the baseline of socialization or interaction. So how could you teach people better etiquette? Do you shift and pivot to then app etiquette? How do you correspond? How do you socialize online? Are you learning those things to then help the new generation because of where we are? In the world?

Well, I think all of us, that all generations are learning those things. We grapple with the digital world. And that's why at the end of every chapter, whether it's my social chapter, work, career, love and relationships, the food and dining, at the end, there's always a subchapter. So I I end every chapter with a subchapter that talks about the digital etiquette for these things. And I think that my Netflix show, Mind Your Matters, was delayed because of COVID. So production was delayed because of COVID. It ended up coming out out of COVID, which was end of 2022. But in many ways, I felt that that was more timely because coming out of COVID, everybody had a bit of social anxiety. Our social skills are a bit rusty. We're feeling more isolated and alone than ever. And we have this whole generation, like you said, where... I mean, they're going through a mental health crisis. And it absolutely is in line with social media and the digital age.

You're right.

Hiding behind screens.

Hiding behind screens, or they can talk on a Zoom for a very finite period of time. Even dating, though. Let's just talk about the relationship aspect. Now, that's how people are meeting people is through online apps. So you have a whole area in the book about this. Can you just give us some proper etiquette for dating 101 in etiquette it because there's so many crazy things that are happening with how people are communicating. What should they say? How much should they say? Are you supposed to wait three days before you sleep with somebody? Are you supposed to do this? There's so much noise. Can you just break it down to the top five things that people should do well or do when they're dating online?

Yeah. So the top five things people should be mindful of when dating, whether online or offline, is first of all, for your first date, keep it casual. Keep it casual and have it so that you can control the time frame. Don't sit down for a three-course dinner. Have a coffee. Take a walk in the park. Because if it's not working out, don't waste your time. Time is the most valuable thing in everybody's life right now. So you can control your time and then exit when you need to exit. Secondly, I would say, the first three days are getting to know someone, but don't go too heavy. Wait till date three to see if you're actually... When you get to know somebody, you see if you're attracted to somebody, because by date three, you should know if you're attracted or not before digging into all of their personal history, before asking about their exes, their divorce, or kids, etc, all that stuff. When it comes to sex, because you just mentioned, in the book, I say, wait for as long as you can stand it. Not that I'm saying a one-night stand is bad. Hey, I don't judge, and I think everybody should have a bit of fun.

But if you're looking for a serious relationship, then you should wait for as long as you can stand it. Actually, it'll be better.

Listen, I judge. I think that people are just jumping into bed with anybody. But that's taken over relationships now. People are not even having relationships. They're hooking up. They're having situations. To me, we've lost the ability, like I said, to truly connect with people because everything's becoming very transactional. And I do find this to be a big problem. But continue.

And then I would say that for me, I had my best relationships when I was the best version of myself. And listen, all of our issues stem from childhood. And there's no such thing as perfect parenting. So I think the sooner you can understand your own issues and the emotional damage from your childhood, and the sooner you can work on that, whether it's reading self-help books, whether it's listening to podcasts, whether it's getting therapy, which I'm a huge proponent of, then the sooner you can become the best version of yourself, you're like a mirror, you will attract the best partner that you can attract.

Yeah, I agree with that, of course. But there's been a lot of backlash now within mental health. I was just reading this article about people are now relying on therapy so much, where then you're just focusing only on your problems. Have you seen any of this research where it makes people... It's actually increasing the level of anxiety and depression because you're basically You're constantly giving... This is not about the etiquette, but this is just an article I found really interesting. You're just giving so much focus and attention to all the things that the problems you have and labeling your problems, as opposed to how it used to be even like 40, 30 years ago when I was a kid. And that's part of the reason why the mental health crisis has been getting higher. Besides, of course, the comparison and social media and all of the other stuff and the inability to socialize. But also then we're becoming very self-absorbed and coddled, where then we're just focusing on ourselves 24 hours a day. And it's actually becoming... It's the pendulum that swung too far.

That is really interesting, and I can see that. I can see that we are becoming very coddled. It's a fine balance. And it's a balance that I think we need to think critically for ourselves. So much of it's herd mentality, and we just jump on. And that's cancel culture, too, as well, right?

A hundred %.

Everything is for a great moment. Just jumping on high behind the screen, no accountability. What happened to thinking for yourself and thinking about what's important to you and thinking about what you want to do about it?

It's interesting that you just said that, and I'm going to now segue it back to your book, not even on purpose, but because that's what I noticed when I was reading it, you said a couple of things that were contrary to what I would think that you would have said.

What? I love being contrary in that.

No, because you know the whole, like breaking up on text message. That was one just easy example just to pull from because everyone's like, it's not it's not appropriate. How dare you? You're so rude. And so when I was bringing this whole area about the dating and the relationships, and then you talked about actually breaking up with your boyfriend on a text message and how it's totally fine and people should not be saying that's bad etiquette. I was really impressed because of the reason behind it. So I agree with you. I think that not everything has to be this way or that way. Because it fits into a nice box. So I love it. Can you just tell the story, actually? I love it.

I'm sure my ex-boyfriend is. I'm sure he loves it. But well, yeah, who knows? He blocked me.

He did? And by the way, obviously, you changed his name, right? Or no, you didn't. Obviously.

I kept the first letter the same. So any good anecdote, good story where it's a praise, I keep the real name. If it's a negative story, I change the name, but I keep the first letter as the same. So Of course.

Sarah B. Susie. Yeah, of course. 100 %. I love it. I love it. I love that. Okay, so tell us why. Okay, so explain that.

And of course, it was a New York Times style profile that came out in January 2023. And of course, they take the one thing that I say out of a 36-hour of them shadowing me. And they make that the headline.

I love it. Of course, that's it. Clickbait. Clickbait.

So when I saw it, I cringed. And then I sent it to my cousin Adrienne, who I'm I'm closest with. And when she saw it, she was like, Oh, M. G. And I was dying. I really wanted to post it on Instagram or social media because it's a New York Times style profile, and I love the photo. Everything else about the article was great. And I was like, Oh. And then 10 minutes later, when Adrienne finished, she finished reading the article. She was like, You know what? It's the perfect title. Because it talks about how etiquette is contextual. And so saying the etiquette guru who broke up with her boyfriend over text, it's contextual. And now I embrace title. And that ex, his friend, sent me the title, along with comments like, What a title.

Right, right, right. Well, actually, listen, I think it works because I think life is contextual, right? Everything in life is contextual. And if you are in a terrible relationship and you get the courage in that moment to do it, then just do it. The problem is, in your case, it obviously stuck, but a lot of times we will go back and forth anyway. It doesn't stick.

Well, we were on again, off again. And because he was in... He was very insecure and controlling. And so it was day nine of shooting my Netflix show. I was like, here I am telling my students to live their best lives. And over here, I have this needy and controlling boyfriend who's making me cry all the time and show up on set with puffy eyes. And so I was like, you know what? This is it. We're done. And at that point, I was maybe 34 years old, and you think like, oh, it's some cost fallacy, right? We learned this in half of business school. It's like, oh, I invested four years in this relationship already, and I'm already this age. Maybe I should just stay with it because who knows? It's hard to meet somebody these days. When I sent that text, I was prepared to be single for the rest of my life. I was like, I would rather be alone for the rest of my life than be in a relationship that makes me unhappy. I felt as free as a bud after just cutting it off. And I think I needed something as intense and overwhelming as shooting a Netflix show to push me to make that decision because I literally didn't have an ounce, not even a millimeter of space for anything that was not adding value to my life.

Good. And then I spent the next week shooting my show, flew back to China, where I spent Christmas Day and New Year's Eve in a 14-day hotel quarantine because it was COVID lockdown, all that stuff. Popped out of quarantine, had a first date with my now husband, seven months later, was legally wedded. Are you kidding? I'm so happy. Every day, I thank my husband for being such an incredible husband to me. So supportive, so kind, so letting me be myself. Yeah.

How did you meet him?

We met years ago at some event that I hosted at one of my finishing schools. Once you have a physical space, you always have to activate it. So every week, I'd have a couple of events, non-etiquette related. Each event would be like 40, 50 people. And so he had my business card, but he never reached out to me until 2023. 2022. 2022. Yeah.

And then you went out. Is he also similar to you?

He doesn't speak a word of English.

Are you serious?

Where does he live?

You said he lived in Bayes.

He lives in Shanghai. In Shanghai, right. And I feel like I have this double life because obviously, I grew up very comfortable with the West. I went to Philip's Exeter, I speak English. But At the same time, I had to learn Mandarin. And then I went over there, and then I had to open my etiquette school and teach customers who did not speak a word of English. I had to hire staff who didn't speak English. So I literally had to really localize. And to this day, that is one of my achievements that I'm most proud of, that when I speak Mandarin, I speak it so fluently and with such an accent that the locals don't believe I'm not a local.

Wow. Are you serious? Isn't that the most difficult language to learn?

Yeah, it's really, really, really difficult. And people will say, Oh, what do you mean you're from Hong Kong? You must just have gotten Hong Kong passport. I'm like, No, I had to learn Mandarin later on in life. And they say, That's not possible because you're Mandarin is too good.

So what languages do you speak then? English, Mandarin?

English. I speak Cantones because in Hong Kong, we grew up speaking Cantones.

Cantones, yeah.

I studied French and German. In Hong Kong, I went to a German school, so I speak German and French, and then Mandarin.

What does he do back in Shanghai?

So he does real estate.

So this is what's interesting. Okay, so first of all, I didn't ask you yet because I guess I was nervous at the beginning, not because of you, but because I'm just trying to mirror how you're sitting and all these little things. How did you even get the Netflix show?

Oh, yeah.

Let's start with that. How did they even know of you? I mean, you said there's a lot of charm schools in the US.

I don't know how many right now, but back then it was a thing. But what happened was a production studio based in Singapore that called Beach house Productions. They found me, they cold-emailed me. They emailed my info at whatever email. In 2018, And then asked me if they could pitch me as an idea to some streaming platforms, and Netflix bought the show.

And so what year did Netflix buy it? It was 2020, before COVID, you said.

Well, yeah, it was before COVID, and we were supposed to go into production, but then COVID hit. And then that put a spanner in the works. And then we ended up shooting End of 2021 in Sydney.

And how many episodes did you do?

Six episodes. So season one, six episodes.

So then your partner, she didn't want to do the show with you, or did she in the show, or what's the- No, she's not on the show.

She stayed in China. She has a family in China. She never expressed interest, and Netflix never asked, and it wasn't- So were you doing- If we showed in China, she'd probably be in it just because...

No, it makes sense.

But then at that time, they could only get me a visa to go to Australia. Australia was very strict with COVID at that time. It was very strict. Even Australians couldn't get into Australia.

I remember. Do you remember that whole thing- They were pissed. With the tennis player?

Yes, Jokeovich.

Yeah, Jokeovich. But then, okay, so before Before you got the Netflix show, and I know you already had the finishing schools, were you around doing- No, I was just in China. You weren't an etiquette expert on TV shows or doing anything, building a brand? In China, I was. In China, but not anywhere else.

Yeah, I was crazy busy just focusing on China. But I got a lot of overseas media interviews.

So people did know who you were in this space? Yes.

In 2013, I was one of Forbes 12 Women to Watch. 2015, BBC, I was on their list of 100 women.

So how did they know of you? It was really just word of mouth.

Because there was five years when I started my business, I never even came back to America because I was so busy. I was literally... My weekends were the busiest. When people had time off, was when I was busy. I was teaching all the time. I would fly all over China. So not just in our schools, but I would fly to like, Tongching, Xi'an, Wu'Jian, all these places. I was doing three cities a week to teach. And it was exhausting.

So you were actually one of the people teaching at your schools? Absolutely.

Yeah, because we're a boutique school, and we don't have a lot. We have three teachers. But we had a lot of... We We'd bring a lot of experts, like styling experts. We'd have, well, Rebecca is a wine expert. We have an art expert. So all these things.

To teach their own modality, right? Yes. So what would be your modality that you would teach?

Well, the thing I love most is Weston table manners. That's what I absolutely loved. And it was probably one of the highlight classes that students really love, too.

Can you get... Okay, so if you say, because you just said table manners, give me a few top... Besides like- Do's and don'ts? Yeah, do's and don'ts, but not so obvious ones. I know put the napkin on your lap, the way you say, like double the napkin. Give me some other ones that aren't so obvious that people do regularly that we should maybe stop doing.

Yeah. So don't hold your knife like a pen. You'd be surprised how many people do that. They hold their knife like a pen.

Okay, like this? Don't do this.

Well, when you write, it's like, you'd be surprised. A lot of people hold their knife like a pen.

Okay, show us how to hold it.

The way you held it is correct, like this.

Oh, really? Yeah. Versus?

Versus cutting like this. Okay. So I was right.

See there, Amanda. I was right. There you go. Okay, go ahead.

Okay, so here's something that people may not always know. So when you're at a restaurant, when the waiter gives you a menu and you've made your decision, you should close the menu because that is a signal to the waiter that you've already made your decision and he can approach you. If your menu still stays open, he thinks that you haven't made your decision yet. He thinks you're still deciding. Yes, that makes sense. And will not come by.

Okay, that's a good one.

And let's say you started eating, you picked up your cutlery, you started eating, and you want to take a sip of water. You need to put your cutlery down, but just as a rest. Then your cutlery should be in an upside down V-shape on your plate.

Upside down V-shape? This is a V? Yeah.

If your plate is round, it should be like this.

Because that was the one thing I was going to say at the beginning. She would get so mad at me because where I place my cutlery after I eat?

Did you put it half on the table, half on the plate? That's a big no-no.

I don't remember how, but she screamed at me over it. How are you supposed to put your cutlery after you eat? After you eat, they should be parallel, like right to each other, parallel, and they should stay on the plate.

And they can be in a six o'clock.

Okay, that sounds okay. I think that's what she said. Okay. And so...

Okay, give me a few other ones. Oh, here's a fun one. So let's say if you're a woman and you have lipstick on, and you're drinking from your wine gloss, well, you do not want to drink around the rim of your wine gloss because that will leave stains all over your wine gloss. It'll just look really bad. Make sure you're just drinking from the same one place.

That's a good one. I like that one. That's a good one. Oh, another one you said, which I didn't realize, because I think people do this all the time. When you are having a dinner, you're sitting at a table. People always assume that the host should get the best seat, but it's actually the guests that should get the best seat.

The guests of honor. Yeah. If it's just you two, the host and the guests, it should be the guests who should get the best seat. Exactly. And so, for example, let's say if you're in a restaurant and there's a banquet Let's say there's one chair with its back against the wall. Let's say there's one chair facing a wall, there's one chair facing the room, then the better seat is the one facing the room, and you should give that to your guests.

That makes sense. But how about at the head of the table? Should that not be the host?

It depends if you're seating French style or English style. Let's say the table is rectangular, and English style would place the host and hostess at the ends of the table. French style would place host and hostess at the middle of the long table. So there's a difference between French style and English style. And usually, French style is reserved for a big party. So if it's a 20-person dinner or even more, like a state dinner, if let's say King Charles is hosting a state dinner, then Usually, the host and hostess sit in the middle of a long table. That way, all the VIPs that sit near the host and hostess can speak to each other. And then the less important you are, the further away from the middle you sit. And then English style is reserved for a small, like at home, for example, a dinner of six people, eight people, 10 people. The host and hostess are at the ends of the table, and then the VIPs are next to them, and then the less important people are towards the middle of the table, so everybody feels cocooned. But this works for small dinners.

I love that. Okay, so I didn't even get to any of my questions, but even how you position your feet. I saw something that if your feet are in a V position, does that make... You're closed, you're open. What does this mean?

Yeah. Body language is a big part.

Yeah.

This is a nonverbal communication. Actually, if I'm, let's say, at a gathering or a social function, sometimes I'll sit or I'll stand with my hands like this and my palms facing up. Because actually, when you show your palm, it's an open gesture. It's an open gesture. Whereas if it's like this, and this is a closed gesture, I mean, this we all know. If you're standing and your feet are all tangled up, then that's closed. But if you're If your feet are relaxed like that, comfortable, in ballet, it's the fifth position, the V, and that's just an open gesture.

Is there any... Give me some other ones that people don't know in terms of body language. We all know this one and this. Give us some other ones that maybe are not so obvious.

Yeah. Well, here's a fun thing that's history-related. The history behind shaking hands, why do humans shake hands? It's to show that we don't have weapons in our hands. That was the beginning of shaking hands. Toasting, toasting wine. I mean, now we just raise our glass, right? But back then, people would really go at it, and then wine would fly around into each other's cups. And why was that? To show that the host had not poisoned their guests' wine. That was the purpose of toasting.

So why do we still do it? Do we need to?

Because hundreds of years of tradition. And it's still a nice gesture to toast, to welcome someone or to kick off an event. It's just to have that. It's nice.

What do you think of a fist pump? Because I feel like now people are not- With COVID. Yeah, with COVID, they're not shaking their hands. They're doing the fist pump.

Yeah, and that's fine. But hey, listen, we just went through three years of the first ever event in the world that affected literally the whole world. So we change with the times, and etiquette should be updated with the times.

So what are some things that have shifted and changed since you were young? What are some things that are very current, etiquette-wise, since after COVID, that were not part of the etiquette system or protocol before?

So I I mean, the one that you just mentioned, handshake, is a big thing. Let's see. I would say... So here's something funny. In Asia, whenever you are sick, you wear a mask. That was always the case before COVID. So if When you see an Asian person wearing a mask, it usually means because they have a sniffle, and they don't want to give it to you. It's very different from the West, where it's like, okay, I'm going to wear it to protect myself. In Asia, it was more of a sign of respect, where I have a cold I don't want to pass on my office, thus I'm going to wear a mask.

Well, I thought, though, people in Asia were wearing masks for many, many years because they didn't want to get sick, which I thought was smart at the time.

It definitely was not as widespread. And in China, at At least it's more you wear a mask because you are sick and in Japan as well, you don't want to pass that on to somebody else. But now, wearing a mask is much more common place. Now, when I fly around America, I see Americans wearing masks.

Do you wear a mask? Because no.

It depends. It really depends. When I flew back from New York to Hong Kong, on that flight, I got COVID, and then I gave it to my dad, who ended up in hospital, and he made it okay. But after that, that made me a lot more careful. So if I'm about to see an old person, then I I try to protect myself so that I don't get anything to pass on to an old person.

Yeah, that makes sense. So in terms of etiquette for post-COVID, 2024 now, give us some other ones besides the fist pump, or is there anything you can think of?

Well, I would say that if you are really sick, if you've come down with something, then it's better to excuse yourself from a social gathering than to show up coughing and sneezing all over the other guests.

Yeah.

I think that's also just- It's also... Oh, you'd be surprised, but it's also a really handy way to cancel last minute.

It's always that in kids.

Exactly. So let's say you're single, you don't have the kid excuse.

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So go now to pendulumlife. Com and use my code at checkout. Trust me, you will feel incredible. Okay, this is what I wanted to ask you because I'm a very curious person, right? Just by nature, not because... I mean, the podcast is just an evolution of a natural thing for me to do, considering I ask a ton of questions on a good day without a microphone. In your opinion, what is the difference between being curious and being intrusive?

I think it's also contextual. If we were in Asia and somebody saw you and they said, Oh, you've gained weight, or, Oh, you've lost weight, or, Oh, are you dating anyone now? When are you getting married? These are actually signs of care. If If let's say I saw a friend in China and the first thing said, Oh, you've gained weight, I actually would not be offended. I would not be offended because it's a way of showing they notice you. They care.

In the West, if they said that, My God, the person will be slitting their throat in the next minute.

Exactly. People either take it extremely personally or they would just think very poorly of you.

Yeah.

Right? And so that's why it's very contextual. There is no right or wrong. It's contextual.

See, the way I look at it is that you can get away with anything. It's not what you say, it's how you say it.

I completely agree, and I say that in my book as well. And people think that etiquette is one big no. They think it's limiting. I have friends who tell me, Oh, I have terrible etiquette. I'm too honest to have good etiquette. And I'm like, Then you don't really understand the essence of etiquette. And when I say etiquette should be empowering and enabling, you can get what you want. You can ask for what you want. You can set boundaries. You can go speak to the person you want to speak to. It's all about how you do it.

See, that's exactly it. So when I was teasing thinking about this whole unbadded etiquette, it was really what I was really referring to or the table matters because my friend always bothers me about it because of those things or just in terms of being very ladylike, just even looking at you. I know you're going to say, Well, then you're not doing a good job, but that's not true. I just think, is there some part of it? I feel like I'm a bull in a China shop. That's just my personality. I'm louder, I'm more aggressive I'm more... You know what I mean?

I'm more of a- It's also cultural, right? Americans are known- And I'm Jewish.

No, I'm not American. I'm Canadian, by the way.

Well, North American. I mean, it's- Exactly.

That's true. Americans, for sure. But also it's personality-driven. And you're right, like American, Canadian. That's what I was saying. It would be really hard. I feel awkward when I'm too formal. I don't even know how to wear high heels properly without looking like a jerk off because I'm not walking properly. You know what I mean? Because I don't feel myself.

And you know what's actually very funny is that when I'm in China, I come across as much more strong, more aggressive. But it's funny because in America, people may not necessarily say that about me. But in China, I am. And that goes to show you again, the contextual of it.

Or you're a really good chameleon because you've learned to adapt Not because of your background and your training on etiquette, you know how to walk in and be- Adjust.

It's just- Adjust with me. It's even subconscious. And I remember, for example, when I'm in America, I speak with an American, my American accent comes out. But when I'm with an English person or somebody with a UK accent, then I sound more English. And in fact, when I read in my audiobook, I sound more English. And I always wanted, why do I do that? I can't even help myself. And what somebody told me years ago was they said, actually, it's a form of good manners because you're trying to speak in a way to let the other person understand you better. Yes. Subconsciously. So you're subconsciously switching over to that.

Absolutely. But I do notice that my friends from London, they seem so much more pristine and cultured because of the way they speak and the way they sound. And also growing up in Europe, what happens is you get access, you travel through Europe, and you do get more culture that way because you go to Italy, you go to Spain, you go to London, you learn more about other people's nationalities and cultures, which then helps refine you a little bit better.

Also UK culture, I mean, that it's... Silence is golden. So people like quiet time. And there's a culture of never complain, never explain. So it's very different. Whereas American culture is like, speak up for yourself. Complain if you want to.

Hold on a second. I actually was going to tell you the talking culture is versus the listening culture.

Yes.

So there is a big difference between that. I like it. You said something. This is a great little trick because we were just talking about the art of silence in a conversation. You used to mute the phone when you were at, I guess, one minute. I still do.

If I'm not speaking on the phone or on Zoom, I will mute myself. And only when the other person finished speaking, then I unmute. So my resting face is mute, basically. I'm always on mute unless I'm speaking.

That's a great tip because then you don't interrupt somebody.

Yeah. And then you don't have any background noise, like an ambulance passing by or if somebody's in the house, you're not distracting the other person. Because if the other person on the phone, he has some distraction, they're going to be distracted.

It's so true. Again, these are things that common sense that you just don't realize in the moment until you get reminded. Because when you speak on that, when I talk to people and you can tell if I'm talking to my friend in New York or wherever, and I hear bustling on the streets and ambulances, I'm annoyed because I can feel that they can't... How can they hear and listen to me if I can hear all that noise? So that is a really good psychological trick, because then the other person feels like they've been heard and listened to as well.

Exactly.

And it stops you from interrupting if you're somebody who interrupts a lot. Saying that for a friend. We all have a friend.

We're saying that for you.

Right, exactly. Let me ask, because I want to go back a bit. Because before you opened up these finishing schools, you went to Harvard Business School You went... You're obviously a very business savvy, smart person. What would you have done, by the way, if it wasn't for this? Is there anything... Because you were at Goldman Sachs, you said, right?

No, I was at Porella Weinberg.

Excuse me, sorry.

So Basically, I interned for Morgan Stanley the summer before my senior year in investment banking in Hong Kong. When I graduated, I moved to New York City, and I worked for Porella Weinberg, which was the two founders, Joe Porella and Peter Weinberg. One came from Morgan Stanley, the other came from Goldman Sachs.

Oh, okay. Yeah. And then what would you have done? Were you very entrepreneurial? Because I know now you have your own line of... What do you call it?

Yeah, Intimate Wellness.

Intimate Wellness. Were you always someone who thought to be an entrepreneur, to start your own schools to do all these things, or were you going more of a corporate route? What was your plan?

When I was graduating from Harvard Business School and trying to think about what I wanted to do, I basically narrowed my choice down by geography. And I thought at that time, China was at that point a global power in 2012 with a lot of eyes on China. So it was becoming the second power, second to America. And it was very exciting. And I lived in Beijing as a volunteer for a nonprofit before I went to Harvard Business School. So I spent one year there. And I thought me as a Hong Kong Chinese person, I really wanted to go experience this and be part of China and see what I could do. And so that was how I made my choice. I never considered anything else. I'm very much a here and now person. I never really think about, what would I be doing otherwise? And in my mind, I was like, I'm going to do this, and I'm going to make it happen, and it's going to work.

So where else can you go with being an etiquette expert? You wrote your first book, you have this show on Netflix. I would think, because this is my business brain, what you would have done would do a line of- Martha Steward. Yeah, tableware stuff. Exactly. That's the obvious play, right?

Yes. Okay, so here's the thing. Everything I've done in my career has been across two realms. One is East meets West. The other one is female empowerment, helping women move through the world with confidence.

Great spin. I love it.

That's so good. Two years ago, when I was hanging out with my now co founder for Antiwater, my intimate wellness business, when we were hanging out and we were thinking we want to do something that we're really passionate about and that can bring the best of Chinese culture and traditional Chinese medicine, which actually is her family business. So she's Taiwanese. Her grandpa founded his first traditional Chinese medicine, TCM clinic in Taiwan in the 1940s. It's operating to this day by her cousins. So it was passed down because it's her maternal grandmother. And Taiwan is very patriarchal. So it was passed down to the son, the son's son. And so she grew up with this in her family business. She went to U Chicago, so she was very Americanized like me. And then she moved to Shanghai, and she worked for some very exquisite luxury women's wear brands where she was CEO. So she was CEO of Stella McCartney for Asia Pacific for five years, managing hundreds of people.

Wow, these are Stella McCartney.

I know. I actually noticed that. And then she was CEO of Asia Pacific for Diesel Jeans as well. And when we were meeting up, Actually, even before that, she was GM of Shanghai Tang, which is a gorgeous, exquisite Chinese brand. It was under Richemont. Shanghai Tang.

Shanghai Tang. Oh, wow. Okay.

Yes. Yeah. So that was where she began early days. And then we were sitting down and we've always exchanged TCM wellness tips. And she was like, I'm so bored of my job. I'm not learning anything new. I don't feel like I'm doing something that's meaningful to me. I really care about life sciences. She got a PhD in neuroscience, by the way.

She sounds like a real loser this week.

Yeah, and she's 511.

What's her name?

Annie. Annie Hope.

Oh, my God.

Okay. Me being going to my etiquette makeover mode, I was like, Well, if you don't like your life, then do something. Then change your career? Do something that's meaningful to you. And she's like, Yeah, that's a good idea. What do you think I should do? And then as we were thinking about this, what we both loved, what we were passionate about, what we grew up with, we grew up with herbal remedies, her because of her family business me, because in Hong Kong, I grew up with acupuncture, herbal soups, all these things, because my parents were really into it. And we realized that in TCM, a woman's health begins in her ovaries. So your female reproductive health system, that is the most important thing. And if that's good, then the rest of your body is good, basically.

So not like in the US, it's about the gut, the microchips, the microchips. Yes. Okay. This is different.

Very It's different. And in the East, it's about prevention. Eastern medicine is about prevention. Western medicine is about treatment. It's about that quick fix, instantaneous, which I think is a fundamental problem in how we approach health in the West. And I've grown up with both, and I use both. So for example, two months ago, I did the prenuvo scan, and it was amazing. But I also get my weekly acupuncture and cupping and all that stuff as well, even when I'm traveling.

You said that. You said it helps your traveling.

Yeah, and it helps me stay regular on my menstrual cycle because- The acupuncture does. Acupuncture does. It's the only thing that... And in fact, this morning, I met a... I was at a beauty store, and the girl behind the counter was also telling me she does acupuncture every week because it's the only thing that... And she's white, never been to China. And she was saying it's the only thing that keeps her regular. And a Georgetown girlfriend of mine who I saw in New York, she said that when she was 34, she didn't have a period for a year. She decided to go see an acupuncturist. It came the next day. The Really? The next day. And now acupuncture for women trying to conceive for fertility.

Oh, I heard that.

It's the number one thing every woman in America is doing now in Europe for fertility.

Also, they The NAD is very helpful. Do you know what NAD is?

It's like that Western chemical.

It's basically a molecule. It's basically your body stops producing it as you age.

Is that the longevity thing?

Yeah. It's behind you actually, it's called Truneigen. But that wasn't actually I've heard of this. I've heard of it.

I've heard of Truneigen.

Yeah. It's a fantastic... Basically, it's the precursor, which means that you take it and it helps your body produce it, NAD. But I wasn't bringing it up to promote them, even. I was actually bringing it up because there's all this research you're talking about infertility. There's just so many people who've said that when they started to take NAD, either through an IV or through supplements or whatever, it literally was the switch that made them be able to... That's why when you're saying that, it's a huge, huge, huge thing. Interesting. There's a woman named... She's called a fertility egg whisperer, a doctor, Amy. I don't remember. But I'm digressing. But for Very interesting. Women out there who are NAD, Shrinayagen, it's been shown in tons of clinical trials. Anyway, that wasn't what we were talking about, but I wanted to... You were saying acupuncture. What else What is acupuncture, in your opinion, really good for?

So the top three things that Americans go to acupuncture for are mental health. So whether it's sleep or migraines or just anxiety, you put the needles in the head and you will sleep like a baby. Needles in the head that night will make me sleep so well.

Really?

The second thing Americans go to acupuncture for is digestion, so digestive issues. Honestly, all that ice drinking cold things is not good for your digestive system. That's why I bought my flask of hot water. Even Europeans do not drink stuff with ice.

I could not agree with you more. I'm always about room temperature or hot, too. There's also Ayurveda. Ayurveda.

Also thousands of years of history, just like TCM.

Because I'm so on this train with you, I think, because that's so much more for your digestive system. Cold, I feel like- It shocks your system. It shocks your system.

If you want to go to the bathroom and do number two in the When you're morning, the first thing you should do is drink a big glass of hot water when you wake up.

So I drink room temperature water with lemon, but do you think it would be even more effective?

Yes, hot water. That helps your digestive system going.

So what I do is I drink hot tea after my room temperature water.

Yeah, that's good, too. That's great.

What is the difference? Because I know that you always talk about the... Well, not always, but the water with the hot water and ginger for digestion. What about mint? Isn't mint supposed to be hot water with mint leaves? Is that not good for digestion?

No, they add that. Yeah, that's good, too. Ginger has warming properties. It's particularly good for women.

Okay.

And it's also just good to get your energy going.

How much ginger are you putting in there?

Because I don't think I put it in. I put three slices. Oh, that's it? Three thick slices is fine. You can adjust as much as you want. The only thing is don't take ginger at night because it will affect your sleep. Because ginger, it actually helps with circulation. Particularly for people who get cold easily, who have cold hands, cold feet, or in the wintertime, the first thing in the morning, you have ginger. And you can have it up to maybe afternoon. But in the evening, don't have too much ginger. It'll affect your sleep because it gets your metabolism going, right? Does it? Yes, ginger does. That's how it warms you up.

You're not even an acupunctus or a doctor.

This is the most basic thing that all Chinese people know about foods. Tcm, there's a diet therapy, and you know each food, whether it's cooling or warming, and exactly what it does to your body.

So that's why you walk around with the flask of hot water, which I'm going to now start. That's a great one. And so you're taking the skin off the ginger, correct?

No, you don't. I'm lazy.

You could just put it in like that?

I mean, you wash it. And then just stick it in. It's easy. So it's great. I mean, ideally, if you're at home, you could put three slices of ginger in a pot of hot water and you boil it, and that really gets the good stuff out. But hey, I'm on the go. If I'm staying in a hotel, I don't time to do that. But the most important thing is the hot water.

No, I agree with you. The hot water is the key. The cold. I don't ever understand. People have ice.

In the winter. I just came from New York City. I mean, all this ice water in the winter.

I know. I don't understand that. So then, okay, go back. So you and your girlfriend decided that, what you said, everything starts with your ovaries. I'm coming back to this.

In traditional Chinese medicine, your feminine health- I didn't forget about your product. Don't worry. Your feminine health is very important, and even your period is a report card of your health. Are you regular? Do you have blood clots? Have you light flow? Are you entering early menopause?

That's what you asked me when you walked in here about, you're like, oh, when we're talking about traveling, about my menstrual cycle. Because I'm pretty on time all the time. That's very good. What does that mean?

You're healthy.

Oh, that's good. If you're always irregular, what does that mean?

You're unhealthy. Then in that case, if you're always irregular, then you go to a TCM doctor and you figure out why.

I was asking because of this product, too. So then what were you- Okay, so what we wanted to do was we wanted to come out with a product that was rooted in traditional Chinese medicine, which is 2,500 years of history, and that makes me and Annie happy and healthy, and be able to share that with the world through our brand, Antivorta, which in Roman And the mythology means Goddess of the Future.

So we have four skews. We have our Cleansing Gel, which is basically what you use in a shower on your vulva. We don't believe in douching. Everything is external for the vulva. So we have our Cleansing Gel, we have our spray in two different sizes, and then we have our Intimate wipes, which are individually packaged and biodegradable and flushable. So it's a daily care bundle because we're focused on preventive. We're all about prevention. And this daily care bundle, it helps you fight odor, irritation, and dryness.

Is out in the marketplace? Yes.

We just launched in the States two weeks ago on our. Com.

Oh, so you're not selling... You're not brick and mortar yet.

You're just- We don't have our own brick and mortar stores yet. No. No, no, no.

But you're not selling... Where would it be, brick and mortar? I guess there's no way to put... I guess it's at scoop or where do people buy it?

No, we would love it. And in fact, before coming here, I literally just like, I went to some boutique, high-end boutique independent retailers, or that I felt were aligned with our brand and dropped off pitching sets.

Really? Yeah. So how much is this product? What's the It's a nice point.

Can I see it? Yeah. So the most expensive item is our Cleansing Gel, which is our Hero product, and that's $33 US. And then our sprays, we have two sizes. So the big at-home spray is $29. The pocket spray is $31. So what?

You spray your vulvalva, vagina?

Exactly. Yeah, no, totally. You turn it upside down and you four inches away and you spray your vulva. And the pocket spray is actually a great hit for people who like going to the They go to yoga, have lunch with a girlfriend afterwards, but don't have time to shower. It also works as a great deodorant. A lot of our customers have been using it under their arms as well. And these are all free of harmful ingredients, all formulated with traditional Chinese medicine, clean, vegan, everything over here.

I love it. Who helped you formulate this whole thing?

Well, Annie is our chief scientist. I'm CEO and creative, and then she is our COO, and she's head of product, she's head of formula. When we travel to the factory, I'm on the plane watching Netflix. I'm looking at her. She's reading research journals about different ingredients.

Wow. So who else is doing this now? Is there a lot of competition?

We're actually the first Intimate Wellness brand to be formulated with traditional Chinese medicinal herbs, to be inspired by TCM. There are some FemCare brands.

I remember when I was a kid, I would see commercials for Summer's Eve. Do you remember them?

Yes.

The Douching Company?

Yes. And they're still around. They are? They They are around. But listen, I would just say whatever you buy, especially for sensitive skin, which is down there, check the ingredients.

Oh, my God, for sure. I mean, this is what I like. It's all natural. Listen, it's all natural. This is amazing. Not exactly the... I mean, is it proper etiquette to talk about feminine hygiene?

It's about helping women move through the world with confidence. And you would be surprised that... Okay, so there's this book, and it's called Everybody Lies, and it's written by a Google engineer. And he says, Everybody lies if you ask them face to face, but Google search never lies. The most googled body part by men is, you can guess, penis size. The most googled body part by women is vaginal odor.

Really?

I was shocked. Vaginal odor. And young girls who feel crippled by their vaginal odor. We're literally like... It goes of every age.

That's the number one googled- Body part.

And it's in a book called Everybody Lies. You can tell sex with Emily that. I I will.

I'm going to ask her. I'm actually going to ask her out for this episode. Wow, that's crazy. So is that also part of when you did your market research, if this is a viable option, you must have taken that into account.

Yeah, I mean, of course. But for us, even when I do with etiquette, I feel that so much of the media today is telling us, You shouldn't care. You shouldn't care About anti-aging is a bad word now. You shouldn't care that you're aging, but we do. The media is saying, You shouldn't clean your vagina or your vulva, but actually, you should. And we do because you know what?

Who says we shouldn't do that?

A lot of people say we should not clean it. And a lot of people say that you should just use water. But here's the thing. Back in the day when we walked around buck naked, okay, but now we're wearing Lululemon all day long. We are on Western medication, which messes with our hormones. We're traveling long haul, which also messes with our bodies. Stress, alcohol, all these exercise, all these things will affect your microflora and your PH levels.

Yeah, totally. Makes sense.

So you should clean your vulva.

Are you saying vulva because it's a less- No, vulva is the external.

The vagina is internal. We don't promote douching.

Right. So you don't promote douching. That's why you keep on saying it.

People refer to a whole area as vagina, but actually- But those wipes, don't you wipe everything? Yeah, but you can't go up into your vagina.

Oh, my God. I guess you're right. Oh, my gosh. Just a But this is not where I thought the conversation was going with the manner's expert. This was the antithesis of what I thought we were going to be talking about. Oh, my gosh. I love it. Okay, well, I have one other area I want to talk to you about. One question, well, not really one, but you're big into feng shui, and I wanted to know about it. Yes. And because we're talking about vaginas and vulvas, I didn't even ask you about that. Can you talk about that?

Yeah. Well, so for example, your office set up here- You need to help me. The good thing is that your back is against a wall, and you are facing out onto the room and to the window, because the wall is what we call a kuao shan. Kuao is support, shan is mountain. And when you sit, you You want a wall behind you because that's your supporting mountain that protects you. The worst is to have your desk up against the wall where you're facing the wall. And if you're facing the wall, it inhibits growth because you're looking at a wall. And then you're defenseless because your back is to the room, your back is to the window. Now, one thing I would say, instead of a glass table, you should have a wood table because glass is transparent. It's not solid enough if it's a working table. Wood or just something that's not transparent. Why? Because what would it be? Would it be best. Glass, you want your work desk to be a place of security and of productivity and wealth, bringing in money. And in fact, we say the best work desk is something that even covers over the side so that when you're sitting at it, people can't see your legs.

Really? Will I make more money if I have a wooden table that does not show my legs?

Well, you'll have to test it out and let me know.

Wow. Okay. Does it count that the two pieces are wood, that the glass is on top of?

Yeah. This is the most important piece.

That's the most important. Okay. Can you give me some other main things about feng shui? Because this room is like a smorgasbord because I was in the middle of designing it, and then I stopped. This was my husband's mom's that they left here, and I'm trying to get rid of it, but it's comfortable. So I keep it because I actually like to sit in it, but it's the most ungodly-looking thing in the in your world. It's a lazy boy, everybody. They're so ugly, but they're so comfortable.

Okay, in this room, I would say your TV is too high, and that shelf is a bit high, and it creates pressure, especially if you're sitting down.

Yeah, I never watch it. But what do you mean?

But it's just the placement of it. It's looming over you.

So what does that mean?

It creates pressure. So it's added burden.

But can you explain what that means in layman's terms?

Okay, yes.

So I have a TV, but I'm not really using it. So what does it do when I'm in here?

Oh, if you're not using it?

I use it when I'm in my little portable sauna. I'll sit back here and watch TV.

Well, that's fine. But just in It comes of like... I mean, you want to be in the power position, right? So when you're sitting at your desk, you ideally are the highest thing.

Yeah, I got you.

So if you have this TV... Just look at a TV right now. Don't you feel it's looming over you and about to fall on you?

Not Not until you said it, but okay.

And it's so much higher than you. Ideally, you could maybe put this on a lower shelf, maybe half the height.

Okay. I guess my question about feng shui is, what is feng shui in the real term? How does it matter in your life? Other than just esthetics. Okay. I hate the couch. I don't like this. This glass Maybe it should be wood because it represents more money. But in the grand scheme, what is the purpose of it?

So Feng means wind, shui means water. So feng shui is wind, water. Every feng shui master, if, let's say, you want to stop arranging the Feng Shui in your house, the first thing they do is they find out your birthday. So your date of birth and your time of birth, because a lot of it is very customized. And let's say your home, you have you, your husband, and your children, then usually you provide all the birthdates to them while they're calculating which spaces are what. But this room, for example, is just you, so it's just more about you. Feng shui can be applied to your... It can help your love life, your career. It's about maximizing. It's about making the good things better and making the bad things, like minimizing the negative effects, basically. So it's about arranging your furniture in a way that feels comfortable. If something is good, Feng shui, it will feel good. Because again, this is the qi, this is the energy. And so people usually go to a Feng shui master when something bad happens in their life. Find out their partner's cheating. Maybe they just got divorced or break up.

Just got fired, maybe. Something not going well at work, a deal just fell through. That's usually when people will turn to feng shui because something happened and they need help. And then usually, we do feng shui. Feng shui is only... Feng shui, generally speaking, so for example, the placement of your desk, you want it to be in a good position where you feel safe, you feel strong, you feel powerful. These things are evergreen. But if you want to go to the detail of, Okay, you need water in this corner, so you have some moving fish tank, or you want to put red curtains here, blah, blah, blah, that feng shui lasts only 12 months. From Chinese New Year in January, February, to Chinese New Year the next year. So usually every year, because it's a different year, you'll be the year of the Ox, year of the Tiger, year of the Rabbit. Right now, it's year of the Dragon. And so based on each year, details of the Feng shui changes, but the general Feng shui of like, okay, the placement feels good, generally, that's evergreen.

I felt like also it gives a room a certain feel. Can you walk into a room and feel if it's a good feeling, a bad feeling?

Absolutely. I'll walk into a salon, I'll know Okay, this is a jagged edge or this feels blocked. But also that's- What did you feel when you walked in here? Well, I mean, here everything's been pushed aside in order to do the podcast. So I haven't seen it when it normally is. But I It feels cozy. It feels bustling, maybe a little bit... The main thing for me is that the TV is too high.

You didn't notice the ugly couch behind you?

Yeah, but I mean...

It does? Okay, well, that's good.

I mean, feng shui isn't about the esthetics.

It's not about the esthetics.

It's not about the feeling of everything, the harmony of everything together. So for example, we'll say, avoid sharp corners. If you want harmony in the family, then go for rounded corners, or let's say your dining table, or it can be a rounded corner, or it could be a roundtable.

That's so interesting.

If you want to do feng shui, let's say you're single, then make sure that you can put some pink in your room that attracts... That's like peach blossom color that attracts love. And then you want to have everything in your bedroom be symmetrical. So if you're single and you're looking for a relationship, the last thing you should have is a single bed. You have a double bed, which invites space for somebody into your life. You should not have your bed pushed up against a wall. You should have space on both sides for somebody to enter. You should not have just one night stand. You should have a pair of night stands. Again, symmetrical.

So act as if.

Yeah. I love that. You don't want your closet to be totally, completely packed. You want to leave a little bit of space for somebody else to put their clothes in.

Are there three key rules of feng shui?

I can give you three key rules of feng shui.

Sure. Do that, and We'll wrap it up because God knows it's been forever. I can afford you.

Let's see. One of them three good rules. Well, so I'd say rule one, rounded corners are preferred over sharp corners. That's one thing. Although it's actually okay for a work desk to have shop corners.

Okay.

Good. Rule number two, no disturbing art in the house. And I say this in my Netflix show because you don't want to bring that energy into the home.

Yeah.

Number three, never put the bones or ashes of a loved one or a pet inside the home because it turns the house into a graveyard. It gives it too much yin energy. You'd be surprised at how many Westerners do that. You would be shocked. One of my students in my Netflix show did that. First of all, she burdled the dead fish in their garden. And then when I said, That's a big no, no, a day later, she was like, You know how you said that was a big no, no? I have a question. I have my dad's ashes in my bedroom. No. And I was like, Oh, my God. I was like, Can we turn the cameras on right now?

Yeah, exactly.

I was like, oh, my God, did you guys catch this?

Yeah, that's not... No, I agree with that. Okay. I have all these other questions, but maybe you could just come back because I have so many things I didn't ask you, like practicing non-sexual flirting. Yeah, that's fine.

By the way, I have about 10 minutes left. Is that okay?

No, I have another podcast. I have a podcast, too. That's what I'm saying. I have another person coming, so I feel like we got sidetracked. It's been so fun. This has been really fun. I wanted to talk to you about... Let me just pick one more thing. I know we didn't talk about, but I said it to you before. I love the 22nd rule or the 42nd rule. Please talk about that. Because I think this can be a game changer for a lot of people. No, I'm serious.

Do you have some people you want to name and shame? Yeah.

I don't think I want to name. I feel bad shaming them because sometimes you just are just completely oblivious.

It's usually men, by the way.

A lot of men are very oblivious to this, but I think it can save a lot of relationships and just overall, like communication if people listen to this. This is a really great one, guys. Listen to this.

I like to think of dialog as traffic lights. So if you're speaking, if you stay within 20 seconds, green light, you're in the clear. If you're approaching 40 seconds, orange light, like you're edging on boring. And if you've gone over 40 seconds, red light, you're officially self-obsessed.

I love that. The only issue I have is what if you're telling a story?

That's different. I'm not talking about if you're up on the podium giving a speech, or if you're telling a story which requires- No, but I think a lot of times we'll drone on and on about the story, and they have no awareness that it's boring for people.

So then I guess my question is, when do you know? If you're on a podium giving a speech, of course, you're going to be longer than 20 seconds or 40 seconds. But when you are just in a conversation at dinner or a dinner party, are you allowed to go past 20 seconds? If someone asks you a question, 20 seconds is really short.

Yeah. Well, if somebody's asking you a question which requires a lengthy answer, then you just have to be the judge of that, right? You have to be the judge of that. And also, usually, that's why I think it's important to get out there and go to many social functions as possible and to meet different people.

What I love about the 20-second or 40-second rule when speaking to somebody is more than just it being 20 seconds on the dot or 40 seconds on the dot, it makes you think and you're being conscientious of how long you're talking about yourself. That, to me, is the importance of it versus just like, droning on and on and on without any Any idea that there should be beginning, middle, and end time that should be concise, because otherwise, people will just go on and on. And it could be three minutes, and you're sitting there, and you're like, holy shit, this person is just talking forever. So just be mindful. I think it just makes you feel mindful.

Yes, it's true. It's less about counting the seconds and more about, okay, I know I should be mindful. And for me, if I'm ever on the receiving end of somebody who just keeps strolling on, on, on, what I like to do is I'm already thinking, because I I have a short attention span, and I'm already thinking, how do I get out of here? And if there's other people nearby, I'll just introduce them to somebody else, which, yes, some people be like, that is so immoral of you to push this person onto another person. But it's like, I'm not claiming to be Ms. Goody Two shoes. So I'm not teaching morals. I'm Ms. Manners with a touch of Machiaveli.

I love that. So that is exactly it. So your Manners with a touch of Machiaveli, because I agree with you. I don't think it's rude. What I think is actually you're being very conscientious of the other person's feelings. You don't want to be rude and just walk away with not giving them another person to talk to. You're actually finding a replacement so you can get the hell out of there, which is what I do on a regular basis, and I've mastered this. By the way, now, after talking to you, I think I should be writing a manner to do it. I think a lot of this is just having a lot of social experience and putting it in a book and telling somebody, these are some rules that you should abide by, and it will make your life a lot easier to navigate, really. But you do it much better and you do it in a much more eloquent way than I would ever be able to. And like I said, I love the book. Guys, the book is called Mind Your Manners. I'm going to let her get out of here.

She's the subtitle. We get the subtitle, How to be your best self in any situation.

How to be your best self in any situation by Sarah Janehoe. She's the same lady that has the Netflix show by the same name, Mind Your Manners. And like I said, you guys can just peruse the book in one section You put it down. You got dating in there, you have table manners. You have work situations, how to properly respond to an email on time. By the way, what's an appropriate amount of time?

To respond to an email? Ideally, by end of day, but longest 24 hours.

Work-wise.

Oh, work-wise? Work-wise? Oh, work-wise. Work-wise, actually, there's data that suggests people expect a response within an hour, but at minimum end of day.

Yeah, I still even think that's That's a lot. But anyway, Sarah, where can people find more of you? Are you on social media?

Yes. My Instagram is Sarah Janehoe. And yeah, check out my Netflix show.

And watch the Netflix show, guys. I watched a couple of episodes. It was cute. You're very good on it. They really are. Thank you so much for being on the show. And good luck with the book.

Thank you.

And thank you for having me. Good luck with your Intimate Care female.

Antiborta. Yeah. Everybody with a vulva should get one. Everybody who knows somebody with a vulva can get them one.

And I will definitely... I'll try it and post it, and great. Thank you. Thank you. Bye, everybody. Bye. This episode is brought to you by the Yap Media Podcast Network. I'm Holly Taha, CEO of the award-winning Digital Media Empire, Yap Media, and host of Yap, Young and Profiting Podcast, a number one entrepreneurship and self improvement podcast where you can listen, learn, and profit. On Young and Profiting podcast, I interview the brightest minds in the world, and I turn their wisdom into actionable advice that you can use in your daily life.

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