Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Garaboldy Red podcast as Nottingham Forest are beaten by two goals away from home at Goodison Park to Everton in what was a crucial game for the Reds. Maybe a must win, but also a don't lose the game. Forest did lose the game and lots to talk about. Var, Stuart Atwell, club statements, Nuno, the pressure on him, the pressure on players, full-time scenes, which weren't great to see, but understood with fans putting the blame on the players as they came to salute and applaud them. I will add we are live on YouTube and Facebook, so be sure to get your comments into us, joining me to discuss the performance and everything surrounding it. Max Scott, Talk Sport Broadcaster and Forest fan, and Mark Turner as well, Forest fan and regular to the podcast. Before I kick things off, both. Max, how are you? Have you managed to calm down yet?

Yeah, no, I think perfectly calm. But I think there's lots to talk about and we'll get into that in a moment. We say all the time, it's part and parcel, I think, of following the football club. It's part of following the football club under the ownership that we've got. There's lots of quirks, there's lots of developments that you would never expect. But equally, outside of Forest Control, there's lots of things that fuel that fire that we're here to talk about. So looking forward to getting into it. And then I just reiterate, really want to hear what fans think. Get your comments in because it's unprecedented. Whatever way you want to look at it, what we've seen today, what we've seen after the game is unprecedented, and it's no doubt going to... This isn't going to end today. Clearly, the club want this to be as public as possible. And an investment investigation is being launched into Forest for that tweet. And so I think hearing what fans have got to say is really important for what we're going to do in this podcast.

Yeah. Mark also joining us. I will come to you in a minute, Mark. I promise I won't forget about you. I could never forget about you. So thanks for joining. I wanted to kick it off. And in a relatively short period of time, broadcasting and covering Forest since the age, the grand old age of 14, I never really agree with going on a rant or me kicking it off with my views, because at the end of the day, I present the podcast and luckily I have great guests that come on and give me their views. But I don't think I can go without really starting off without my views. So I'm going to give my views. And we all know what happened. If you don't, Forrest have put a tweet out. I'll read the tweet to you. Nottingham Forrest tweaked on X or Twitter, whatever you want to call it, three extremely poor decisions, three penalties not given, which we simply cannot accept. We warn the PGMOL that the VAR is a looting before the game, but they didn't change him. That's Stuart Atwell. Our patience has been tested multiple times. Nottingham Forest Football Club will now consider its options.

The three penalties for me, two of them are our penalties. I don't think we're disagreeing on that. However, when a professional football club, and in particular our football club, the Fans Football Club, is tweeting after the game out of pure emotions, which seems like this tweet could have literally Probably come from the Maranacas family because it is that angry, to tweet something like that to put Forest in such a serious situation now with the FA launching an investigation into Forest, and also in a way to invite more pressure onto the football club at a time when Forest have broken the rules for PSR, at a time when Forest are fighting for their lives at the bottom of the Premier League to simply stay in the division. To put a tweet out like that, in my opinion, absolutely wrong, and the football club should not do that. It is a professional football club. We're not talking about a Sunday League football club here. We're talking about Nottingham Forest football club, a club that me and many others invest money into, invest time into, go to away games, and frankly, another poor performance today, which you can blame slightly on referee decisions, and you can see why Forest have almost ammo to their argument.

But in the same sense, Forrest lost the game today by not taking chances. I was there at Goodison, and the majority of the fans inside that away and weren't talking about the decisions at the end of the game. They were talking about how poor another performance was. Under Nuno, where questions are being asked on him now, and I just think for Nottingham Forest to tweet that today is nothing short of disgraceful. That's my views on it. Very strong views, but I'm going with it. I want to bring in Mark. Mark, what did you make of that statement? Can you see any justification to it? And simply, do you agree?

Well, hey, guys. I'm trying to gather my thoughts here because this could very well end up being the most contentious pod we put out this season. But also, how can it not be? Given everything we saw in the game today and the tweet that followed subsequently. I'm struggling with this one, Max, because when the tweet came out initially, I saw a lot of snidey responses in regards to it from people who should know better. And it got my back up and it sent me into defense mode, as it were. But also I'm someone who's come through and followed Forest now for... I first started following Forest the very first year that I won the European Cup. I talk about the incredible good fortune of selecting Forest as my team and subsequently seeing them raise the European Cup later that year. And of course, seeing Nottingham Forest in a certain light, right? Through the Brian Clough lens, through the way that we conduct ourselves, through the standards that people associate with Nottingham Forest. It's well documented. The club wouldn't allow any of his players to get on officials during the match. He would abolish the players himself if they were to take those steps.

And so as I'm calming down, I'm trying to process everything and I'm trying to look at the bigger picture. I agree with you. I largely agree with you. I think my thoughts are in line with your own, Max. I put out a tweet myself once I calmed down a little bit. It simply said, Look, do I wish Nottingham Forest hadn't sent that tweet? Yes. But I'm more concerned that the club had caused to do so given the circumstances. We can talk about appropriateness of social media posts all day long, but can we also talk about the integrity of our national game? And that's not just in regards to Nottingham Forest. We've seen the decision made this week in regards to FA Cup replays and the impact that has on the greatest majority of teams. And I don't want to get too far off the beaten path here, Max, but the greatest majority of professional teams in this country, to the benefit of very few. Fundamentally, this game is in turmoil. It really is. But then that being said, I don't know the forest. The best way to go about providing a resolution to that is to respond in the way that forest did.

So imbalance, it's a very long-winded way of saying, I'm with you, Max. But also, When a club comes to you beforehand and says the VAR is a supporter of a rival relegation team, and you, as a league, don't feel the need to respond to that, I'll do something about it. You really are opening yourself up to all that followed.

Yeah. Max, do you want to come in there?

Yeah. I think really measured response from Mark. Max, I'm with you on a lot of what you said. My big point, and this is something that I tried to I try to have anyway, to varying degrees of success in my own work, is that I'm a big champion of nuance. And I think that there's a lot of nuance in this conversation that we need to, despite the charged emotions, we need allow ourselves to have. So I've been an open and public... I've been open and public in my criticism of the ownership of the of Nottingham Forest Football Club. If the stewardship of the If the stewardship of Nottingham Forest Football Club had been wiser, we wouldn't be in such a bad situation because we'd be four points better off. And the feelings that we feel now wouldn't be as strong because it wouldn't mean as much. And so that's one thing that I feel, in my opinion, is true. However, I still think that there is a convincing argument that if rules, simple rules, had been followed by referees at earlier points in the season, I think of the Willy Bolly sending off, for example, one of many, if rules had been followed and standards weren't as inconsistent and poor in the best football league in the world, then even despite Forest challenges, even despite the quirks of Forest being owned by people who are willing to tweet publicly their criticism of the PGMOL.

Despite that, we might not be in such a bad situation. The nuance continues. However, I think there are reasonable Forest fans that will look at the tweet that Forrest sent and think, That is not befitting of my football club. That is not befitting of any football club, let alone a club with such rich history that we celebrate, and that makes us feel proud of being Forrest fans. But I do think that there is a group of those very same reasonable Forrest fans that will look at that tweet and think, Fair play. They will look at that tweet and think, If it's true, if it's true, that Stuart Atwell is some way related to Luton, some way has some affinity with Luton, then it is a fair comment to make. Whether the club should make it publicly on Twitter is a very different matter. But I think that there will be fans in the middle, Max, that look at this and think, Well, I don't like the fact my club's posting this, but I agree with the sentiment. I think this sentiment. And the last thing I'll say on this is I think there's a very fine but serious line of Forest fans wanting to have a healthy conversation about standards of refereeing, want to have a healthy conversation about the consistency in which VAR and rules are applied by VAR.

There's a very fine line between that and saying that in some way there is corruption or a conspiracy against Forest. In my opinion, get real. It's a cop-out answer. It's an easy way to sit on your high horse or to somehow be a victim of Forrest. The Premier League and the PGM don't want Forrest in the league. Get real. It's a cop-out. Let's have a conversation about standards of officiating, because I've been tweeting about this, and rightly, Burnley fans, Luton fans, Sheffield United fans, Palace fans, Brentford fans have been in my comments saying, Well, hold on, it's not just you, it's us. And I agree. So we can't sit there and say, Woe is me, it's just Forrest. Yes, we've been on the receiving end of some awful decisions. But this is a wider conversation about the standards officiating in the so-called best league in world football, and that needs to change.

Yeah, spot on. And I agree. And it's interesting, I think when people use the C-word as such and the corruption word and they talk about it, it does feel like it's a bit of an excuse because everybody has bad decisions. I've just finished watching the Coventry Man United game. And look, that offside for Coventry with their late goal, which would have been so nice to see them in the Cup final, makes you maybe question at times. Hang on a minute. It was either City Coventry or it's City United. What game maybe would somebody else want? I'm not by any means suggesting anything there. I'm just opening a question up. And I think that's where a lot of football fans align. The same way that Wolves fans this season will say, Look, we've been really hard done by. The same way that Everton fans. I was inside Goodison today. And every time Anthony Taylor gave a free kick to Forest that might have been 50/50, might have probably been Everton's free kick, the Everton fans would have the same reaction as Forest fans on the opposing end. Everybody's in the same boat here. And I agree with you.

I think it's the lack When you think of consistency refereeing. Why don't ex-pros go into referee? And that's the big question for me. Why don't ex-footballers that know the game go, why doesn't a manager... Let's take Neil Warnock, for example, someone that's been in the game for so long. Get him at the PGMOL and get him to review decisions and get him to give his take on it. That would make a fairer game for me. And it just doesn't seem like we're getting that.

I'm all for having Neil Warnock shot in a box somewhere. That's a great idea. Let me press back you guys a little bit, though, because you're right. You're talking about extreme fringes of our fan base, Max Scott, when you talk about those fans who are suggesting that there's some degree of corruption going on here. And I don't think any of us on here believe that, right? But If we had a situation where Arsenal were playing Liverpool and the VAR was a Manchester City fan, would we all be comfortable with that? Would we all say, You know what? These guys are professionals. They're trained to do this job. That doesn't come into it. No harm, no foul. Wouldn't that be a settling to anybody?

Yeah. And that's what I'm saying about this, just being in the middle a little bit about this. I don't like the fact that we have an ownership that is so readily willing to publicly and put Nottingham Forest's reputation on the line. And ultimately, regardless of what you think of the incident itself, it brings the club into disrepute. There's no doubt about it. But in this instance, for the first time, there is, for me, a modicum of sympathy for the sentiment in the tweet because... I'm trying to look at this as level-head as I can. You're absolutely right, Mark. There has to be a question. You have to ask questions about Stuart Atwell's affinity to Luton. Now, it might well be a massive red herring. I've tried to do as much searches on Google, and in a There seems to be some weight in it. I don't know. We could be completely wrong. But you would hope that the professionalism at the PGMOL would mean that this would never be the case. But we have a track record, don't we, of inconsistency, which I think throws into question how elite these referees are or the people at the top of the game are.

And so in a way, it doesn't surprise me. But you're absolutely right. If this is Yeah, if this is City against... Yeah, well, you're right. You've said it. It just wouldn't happen, would it, Mark? It wouldn't happen.

Yeah. And it's been talked about Forest are being investigated by the FA for basically questioning the integrity of the game. It is against the rules, and especially on social media. So Forest have another investigation, a PSR investigation, the points deduction appeal, and now this, something Forest should simply do without. Lee says, I agree with what Forest out. The Premier League is clearly corrupt. I found a list from the 2021 to '22 season showing him official support at Wael Luton. He shouldn't be allowed in the VAR room. We made that point and we were robbed, and it's only right to expose it.

Lee, The second part of what you've said is absolutely right. It wasn't the right decision. The first part about corruption, with the greatest respect, I just cannot understand why you would think, what evidence do you have that Nottingham Forest are in some way being targeted? Let's try to keep our feet on the ground in some sense. It's any other fan of any other club, when there is a decision against them, is going to feel wronged. But to say that somehow there is an agenda against Forest, I think, is absolute insanity. I think it's a much healthier conversation, and it's a much more reasonable conversation And a conversation that can have actual positive benefits is to question the direction of the PGMOL in the level of standards. But to say, Oh, it's all about us. They want us relegated with no meaningful evidence other than poor refereeing decisions, which happens to everybody. It just so happens that maybe if you totded them up, Forest would be at the top end of the league in terms of decisions against them. But that doesn't mean it's corruption. I think it's more of a thing about standards.

Also, Max, as well, Forest, not only are they not being targeted, but I think Forest also have to accept responsibility for drawing some heat to themselves this season. You've had PSR, you've had hiring Mark Clattenberg. They're fully within their rights to do that. But what message does that send and what relationship does that create them between yourselves and the authorities? So again, forests are well within their interests to do that if they feel like they need to, but you're just drawing heat to yourself.

Yeah. Let's bring in this comment, actually, from Gary. Embarrassing on and off the field. The constant deflection from the disastrous recruitment is almost Trumpian levels. That statement today sends the club's optics even lower, which I thought- And Max, can I come in on that?

This is what I'm saying about the nuance right at the very beginning. If the club's approach to transfers wasn't so harmful, wasn't so unwise, wasn't so scattergun, then the decisions which potentially, we don't even know, but potentially have led to us losing the game today wouldn't matter as much because we'd be further up the table. We wouldn't have the points deduction, we wouldn't be in this trouble. And so there's an element of which I can't quite get behind the tweet because I very much sit in the camp that the very people that have put that tweet out are the author of our biggest downfall this year, which is the four points deduction. So it's a really difficult situation, I think, to be in. And I think they need to think very carefully about the position that they're putting us as fans in, the turmoil that they're putting us as fans. You've spent thousands and thousands and thousands of pounds over generations on this football club in the same week that they've hiked the ticket prices to startling levels. And they've also put fans in a really difficult position because we want the best for our football club, but we also want the football club to be represented in a decent and classy way, and that's not happening.

It's really, really difficult time to be a Forest fan.

Yeah, it is. I agree. It's really difficult. And I'll throw this point in before we move on to the game because we forget that we've almost lost with all of this. I think the problem is the whole corruption talk will only ever be proved if simply evidence is released that it is corrupt, if there's an audio recording released or something that clearly shows it is. Until then, it's just fan talk. It's just conspiracies. What I think needs to be reviewed is just the whole situation of VAR and how it's interfering football, and in my opinion, ruining football. But that's my view. Yeah, and that's how I see it. Right, let's look at the game. You can probably tell from my voice, just the shouting at the players and just everything today. I think Forest fans made the trip a little bit more hopeful given that Everton came into the game after a disastrous result midweek. Forest a little bit maybe positive after a decent draw, albeit against Wolves and then obviously the Tottenham game. But I think Forest fans did expect something today, and it just wasn't great at all. Mark, kick us off with your thoughts on the overall game, and then we'll take it from there.

But I just think you've talked about Me and you have talked about all season about leaders and consistency and fight and desire, and I don't think really there was any of that today.

And cohesion.

Yeah.

Right? We saw a couple of changes in the starting lineup today. I don't think they had the desired effect. I don't think we started too badly, actually, again, not really par for the course for us, but I think we started off on a pretty strong foot, but it just seemed to deteriorate as the game rolled on. I really expected for us to come out with the fire in our bellies at the beginning of the second half. That certainly didn't happen, but just flat all the way round. I mean, I'll give Everton their flowers. They worked incredibly hard. They hunt in packs. They surrounded more than Gibbs White at every opportunity, which is smart. I mean, you by him as being really the main creator in our team. But football is so much about momentum as well. Had Chris Wood has been able to tuck away that opportunity at the back post, and Jordan Pickford not got something on it. And like I've told you before, Max, I do some commentary here in the US for the National Independent Soccer Association, who are the third tier here in the US, so below MLS and USL. And honest God, if I'd seen reference decisions in regards to those penalties all go the way of one team over another, I would have found that incredibly amateur and frustrating.

And that isn't to say that all those decisions were wrong necessarily. But again, with football being about momentum, had one of those gone our way, it could have perhaps created a different narrative. It didn't ever have a bit firmly between their teeth. And it's hard to argue that they didn't deserve the three points on the balance of the game.

And Max, actually, stood in the away end. I thought it was interesting because Forest started rightly. The first five to possibly 10 minutes, Forest came out, front four, stuff that we've never seen it in a away game before, really. Forest looked like they were going to win that game from the first five minutes. And I turned to my dad and I said, Dad, I think we're going to get something today. So I think we're going to win. And you know what changed the game for me was Niakate made a mistake that gave Everton a corner. A corner. Yeah, and surprise, and a chance to regroup. And from there onwards, the momentum changed, the home side got behind them a little bit. And from there, you're spot on, Mark, about Sean Dych and Everton. I think Sean Dych It's like a nose forest inside and out. If there was one man to possibly manage us this season, it probably should have been and could have been him given that he knows us that well.

Goodison was a morgue as well before that corner, Max.

It was, I agree. It was completely Really silent. As soon as that corner happened, momentum changed, and Goodison was rocking, simply. Talk to me about the game, Max. I just thought, the players came over at the end and clapped the fans, and Chris Wood and Morgan gives why it led the line, and the fans did give those two a round of applause. But everyone else was, I can't really say it on the podcast, but two words, and I just thought. But I just thought it was justifiable given the performance. It just seems so spineless today.

Yeah, I think there's always a line. I think some Wolves fans crossed the line with Morgan gives why last week, for example. But fans pay their money and travel the length and breadth of the country. They're well within their rights to not be happy with the performance. I completely agree. For me, I put the first five minutes down. I thought first five minutes, more than gives White, space. Everton looked a little bit disillusioned. But as soon as that... You're absolutely right, Max. It's the same for me. As soon as that corner went out, and I was watching on the TV because I'm living in London now, and the stat came up, Everton, second top for goal score from corners, Forest Bottom. And I feel that did something to the energy or whatever. After that, I think Mark's absolutely right about his point about cohesion. I look this side and think, what are you trying to do? What are you trying to achieve? Because on paper, in my opinion, Forrest on paper, man for man are better than Everton and have such a vast array of talent. But there There's very little evidence as to what they're trying to achieve as a team.

I want to shout out Nico Williams. I think he's been absolutely brilliant. I think he embodies the passion that we have as fans. That's just It's a separate point. But Mark's absolutely right. We've spoken about the issues with standards of refereeing. We've spoken about the fallout from the tweet. But any of those penalties changes the direction of the game. And Forest and Everton aren't good enough to... Both of them are poor, and so that game could have gone any way. And I think they were helped out by the fact that Forest weren't given a penalty. Just on the first one, I won't go into the other two, but in the current Premier League era, with the precedent that is set by other penalties, we saw an hour later, Aaron Wambisaka and Coventry were awarded a penalty for almost the exact same thing. And this is what is so infuriating, and this is what angers Forest fans, and it's what creates this conspiracy mentality within fans, that is a penalty. And that is why people say constantly, The game's gone, because there's no consistency. So whilst Forest didn't cover themselves in glory whilst it looked like they lacked a little bit of fight and grit, whilst it looks like they lacked that togetherness in a way of playing, I'm sorry, but a penalty changes that game, and it didn't happen.

I don't want to open a big discussion about it. I don't really care what people think, but I cannot help the overwhelming feeling, well, there's many overwhelming feelings from today, but one of the overwhelming feelings, actually, and I'm almost reluctant to say it, but I cannot help but think if Forest still had Steve Cooper as their manager, we wouldn't be in any worse situation. And we'd have a manager that fans care about. We'd have someone that we can rely on because we can't rely on the ownership to give us that sense of togetherness or that sense of who we are.

When you say that, Max, when you talk about Cooper and Forest fans say, We want Cooper back and all of that, I am playing devil's advocate here. But is that not just Forest I'm saying we wish we were in the happier times with Steve Cooper, having that connection? Absolutely.

Max, I'm not saying we should hire him. I'm not saying we should hire him, but tactically, I don't think we'd be any worse. Right.

I agree. And also to both of your points, bring them together and combine them. I put a tweet during the game, before the end of the game, before the madness with Forrest's tweet went out post-game and said, It's really hard to admit this, but I don't really like my team right now. Forget my club, excuse me, not just the team, my club. Forget loving them. I don't really like them much right now. And there's just been a constant erosion throughout the season. And firing Steve Cooper has contributed to that, whether you feel like the results deserve that decision or not. But the feel good factor that came with Cooper and the belief that he was connected to our club and really cared, I don't know. Maybe this is hyperbolic, but if we're going to go down, I think most Forest fans would rather have gone down with Cooper than go down with Nuno. I really do. I think he said, You know what? If we're going to go down, let's go down together. Let's go down with the guy who brought us back up. Let's go down with the guy who we think can bring us back again.

And let's go down with the guy who gets this club and makes us feel good about being not a Forest fan.

And I want to clarify that for people watching. What we're not saying is that we should hire him back. And what we're talking about is The many different things, many different decisions that have been made by the football club that have contributed to where we are now. And one of them was firing Steve Cooper. Yeah, it wasn't good enough. Yeah, things weren't going particularly well. But I think that that, in some way, took away from the soul of the football club at the time. And I'm struggling to find, other than in Morgan Gibbs-White, other than in Ryan Yates when he plays, other than in Nico Williams, I'm struggling to see the spirit that we had built. And that's difficult as a fan to watch. So I understand your sentiment, Mark, about love and like. I understand that.

Yeah. And I actually turned to a good friend before the game and said, see, Nuno has come up the tunnel. He hasn't even come over and almost shown appreciation to the traveling supporters. He did at the end, albeit he was told those two words again by the majority of the fan base. But I just thought before the game, you look at a manager like Cooper, but you don't look at managers just like Cooper. You look at other managers I can pick out, for Gwaznav, for Palletsou Forest, we're linked with, I can pick out. Gwadiola, they all appreciate the fans. And I just feel like Nuno hasn't helped himself trying to build a relationship with the club. I just think he's quite tough with the media as well. But that's me speaking from a media point of view and not a fan's point of view. So for fans, it maybe doesn't matter too much. And read out a few more comments because I want to try and get lots of views. We've got lots of people watching tonight. Greg says, 100 % Nuno out. Give it 'I can't even read for the last four games. ' 'Garanteed, we will stay up.

' James says, we're just on a Mike Glazna game. ' James says, 'Mari Nack has had a choice between Nuno and Glazna. ' He picked the wrong one. Paul says here, no threat, nowhere near good enough. Shots on goal never even look like scoring apart from Wood's close strike. ' Yes, the penalty could have changed the game, but we were nowhere good enough full stop. That is a fair view. The penalty changes the momentum as we talk about. Let's stay with Nuno, actually. Was there a plan, Mark, today when you watched it? Did you feel like Forest had a... I actually think the plan was to try and score early, and Forest came out of the blocks. But after that, what was the response to go in a goal down? That's my question to Nuno in a way.

Well, like I said in my earlier comments, there didn't seem to be much of one. And I really thought Nuno would fire the boys up at halftime, and we'd see them come out of the tunnel ready to go. And And I know Forest have been a second-half team this season, so I definitely expected more in that second '45, and it just didn't appear. As I mentioned, we made a couple of changes to the starting lineup. I don't think Nekartee had a particularly bad game. I'm still not quite sure why Langer's on the bench, but then again, I'm not taking practice sessions throughout the week, so there has to be some reason for that. I didn't hate Dominguez coming in for Yates. Max, I know that was a change, you... Max Hayes, and that was a change you wanted. Maybe Max Scott as well, that change you wanted to see.

Yeah, we thought about it and set it like... Yeah.

So I didn't hate that, but then Dominguez didn't do a whole lot. Yates comes on within two minutes, gets a yellow card.

I actually think, you know what? I actually think that maybe today, I genuinely thought we were missing Yates at times, and I do think that was where almost the game was won, not necessarily in the second half or in the first half. But more in the first half, Mark, was almost the midfield. You felt like the midfield was being overrun. I thought Reina had a really good... Everyone's been crying out for him. And then you also look at Morgan, and I don't like criticizing him, but Morgan wasn't at his best today. He had a chance. It seems like Morgan gives why he needs to practice shooting a little bit. And maybe I'm being really critical there. But it just felt like today the midfield was massively overrun, which maybe Yates can have changed.

Well, first of all, I don't think Yates made it all the way to the 90 minutes or even to the 60 minutes if he'd been on that field today. I think he would have been so fired up. He maybe would a couple of yellow cards. I think you're being a little harder, Morgan, because he was targeted for sure. Every time he got the ball, he was surrounded by three Everton players. I sound like a broken record here, Max, but I keep coming back to cohesion, and I keep coming back to us being beaten by teams that are teams. And this goes back to Max Scott's point as well around the Forest recruitment. This is not a team. We said earlier in the season, Max, that it's going to come down to Forest and Luton trading blows. It's points for points between these two teams who can amass the most and the team that does wins, the team that does stays up. I actually think Burnley might come back into the mix now as well. They're playing three of the most hot and cold teams in the division in Manchester United, Tottenham, and Newcastle, yet on paper, sound like daunting prospects.

But these are teams that win three-nil or lose three-nil on subsequent weekends. And then who do they play in the last game? Well, we know who they play in the last game.

I know.

I said this to you. So we're going to break the fourth wall here, Max Hayes, and tell our viewers and listeners something that we talked about offline, which is I revealed to Max, I was- Don't reveal my dirty secrets, Mark. Being a little bit of a heel by suggesting a few weeks the fact that I didn't think Forrest were going to stay up because I wanted to present a contrarian position because, of course, in my heart of hearts, I want Forrest to stay up. But I also want for there to be interesting dialog on this podcast, and it's important we present all the various different viewpoints. There are other fans who believe Forrest are going to go down. So it's important that we address that. I'm actually at a point now where I truly believe it. I truly believe the odds are against us because I'm just not seeing... I'm not And then Nuno, I'm not seeing things develop. I'm not seeing the cohesion. I'm not seeing momentum. And again, we talked about this, Max, between games and in games. I'm just not seeing enough of it. And so even though Forest right now, sitting in a position where they're above Luton and Burnley in the table.

I'm very, very, very nervous about our prospects are staying up this year now.

Got to bring in this comment from someone who obviously appears on the podcast a lot. Dave has commented, Monal, you're like about referees and VAR, but Forest weren't good enough today and haven't been good enough for much of the season. Most of the trouble we are in is of our own doing. So many missed chances again today. Going back to Greg's comment earlier, it stayed in my head about Nuno and making a change. Would that be right, Max? Or would it be similar to replicating Leeds last season and getting Sam. Yeah, and it just being a bit daft? I see people's points about Nuno. I can understand people's frustrations. Would a change be... I mean, I wouldn't be surprised given the ownership, but would a change make sense this late on?

My gut is no. I think the problem at Forest Which is that there isn't a successful culture. There isn't a culture that breeds success. There isn't a culture that breeds a way of playing. So we talk about what was the plan. The course If there was a plan, it wasn't implemented. We could all sit down and have our own plans. And the reason we're not top-flight managers is because we don't... Well, everyone's got a plan. And you'll get this, Mark. It reminds me of Allen Iverson's thing about practice, plan. It's about the implementation. And I think the problem is, it's get Steven reading or get your big Sam in. I just think the problem isn't necessarily the person in charge. The problem is that Nottingham Forest has become a club void of any culture. And what we're being defined by now is antagonism and erratic decisions by the people in charge that put tweets out like that, regardless of the fact that I think the basis of the tweet, I suppose I can understand it. But I just think you can't turn that tank around in four matches. And I think there's enough desire in the players, contrary it and what some people might think, I think there's enough desire in the players to want to get out of it, and that can be enough.

So I think changing it would just further prove the point that Forest doesn't have a sustainable culture. Forest doesn't have the long longevity to stay at the top or to develop into the team that we want them to be. I think there's a very strong argument to say that it's a little bit of a house of cards and whatever happens this season is going to replicate itself until decisions change at the very top of the club. When it comes to transfers, when it comes to recruitment, when it comes to the way that the media are treated, when it comes to the way that staff members of the club are treated. All of these things need to come and need to be taken into account. And I don't think changing the manager would do much, to be honest.

That's the perfect response. The only thing I can add to that is say, why would you want Steven Reid or even Big Sam when the before mentioned Neil Warnock's available?

Yeah, great point.

Don't even suggest it. Maybe the media would come on for... Well, not the media, but maybe certain people would come on Forest's side if.

Andy, I just thought about that. I would love to see Warnock come in at halftime. I'd love to hear what you'd have to say. That'd be great, wouldn't it? But on the point of the media, I don't think there's anything against Forest. I think it's fair that people are criticizing it. But when Jamie Carragher and Gary Neville come out and say it's lacking class. They're paid to give their opinions. I don't think we should get too angry about it, but I do understand it's rich when they come out and give their opinions on Forest... Sorry, opinions on Manchester United and Liverpool. And as soon as Forest have an on what's happening to themselves as a club, all of a sudden, they're jumping on the bandwagon. But it's all part of the game. It's all part of clicks. It's all part of views. It's all part of outrageous culture. It's the world that we live in, isn't it? I don't think there's anything against Forest in the media.

I will jump in there, actually, about Neville. I thought Carriger was a bit more sensible. I think Neville was just... I just think to talk about it lets the club's history down with the statement today. I've said at the start, it was out of order for Forest to put that on. However, I'd argue that Neville should maybe stick to talking about the glazers more than stick to talking about Forrest. I just thought he was really wrong. This comment from Greg or Gregory says, What about King Billy Davis back?

Well, you might be able to get him back, Max. I reckon you should be able to get him back.

. I reckon he'd last about five minutes with Maranakis and then they'd all fall out and that'd be it.

That would be brilliant. Make a documentary on the 10 minutes he last on the city ground if he came back.

Comedy gold. It's like Forest season hasn't been controversial enough without that happening. God, could you imagine? Right, let's close and finalize because I am wary of time and it's seven on a Sunday. I haven't eaten tea yet and I'm really hungry, to be perfectly honest.

Things you never hear from Gary Lineker on Match of the Day.

See, that's what we bring, what's different here at this podcast. Sign me Max, let's close with your thoughts on whether Forest have got enough to survive in these remaining four games. Mark says he really feels like we don't, but four huge games next. It's not like we're playing Man City next week either.

Forest have got enough to survive, yeah, in terms of talent, in terms of players on the pitch, whether the atmosphere and culture of the club will bring the best out of those players to I don't know. I won't be surprised whatever happens either way. I think like many Forest fans, I feel really tired and a lot has been drained from us as fans. I'm referring to the ticket prices, I'm referring to decisions made at the very top of the club that haven't helped. I want nothing more than Forest to stay in the Premier League. Nothing more. This club, it means so much to us, and I speak for myself, it's It's part of who I am, and it's nothing more than I want. But equally, there's this dissonance because I feel quite disconnected with the way that things are going and the way that things look, the way that things are being run. And so it's really difficult to feel that energy that maybe I felt earlier in the season. But yes, I do think we've got enough to stay up.

Fingers crossed. I like. Yeah, I just hope. Mark, any final thoughts from you before we go? Give us some It's just an optimism.

Honestly, it just hurts my heart to hear Max Scott talk like that because I feel exactly the same way. I do. And I don't want to sit here and be the guy that believes Forrest are going down I think we all know Forrest can. I think all three of us would admit to that. But I don't want to be the guy who sits here and says, I can see it's taking one point in the last four games. And clearly, if that's what we do, that won't be enough. It's It's so difficult right now. It's so difficult. I love this team so much. And anyone who follows me online will know that I'm a fan. I have a few others as well in other countries. And of course, I have my team here in the US, but none of them mean anything close to me as Nauting Forest, as the affection, affinity, and love I have for this club, and I've had for decades, makes this moment in time really challenging. So I'm We're only hoping we do stay up. And you're right, Max, you said this a couple of weeks ago. Wouldn't it be like us to lose to Everton and beat City?

Well, here's hoping.

Yeah, that does us nicely. That ends us on a positive note. Yeah, I think there's time and there's four games left and it isn't over until that season's finished, and it might not even be over given that the points deduction appeal is this week. So we'll keep you updated with that. Deep breath. I'm ready to go to bed. Yes, I will say one final thing before we go. The Forest fans today at Goodison, until the end of the game, they were stuck together. There was a chance of Forest staying up. There was a few Forest till I Die chance as well. I think the fan base have been a credit to the football club this season. I just hope for our sake that we stay in the division. It's as simple as that. Four huge games before the players go on a holiday, we all go on holiday and relax. Let's just hope that we're talking about Forest staying in the Premier League at the end of it. I normally end on a catchy outro, but I won't tonight. I'm going to refrain from it. Forest till we die, fingers crossed. That's all we can do.

Hope, Ray, keep supporting the team. Max, Mark, thank you for tonight. Really appreciate it, giving up your time on a Sunday, Mark. Enjoy the rest of it. Whatever you've got planned at max, you'll probably end up going to sleep like me, mate, after all of that.

Yeah.

Go and have a Mac and cheese.

I'll go down and get £2.50, eight minutes in the microwave.

Yeah, straight up your legs. God, we got Gordon Ramsey on here.

Do you know what? Maybe we should go to do a food podcast if Forrest, get relegated.

Yeah, that sounds about right.

Yeah, we could... I don't know, though. There'd probably be less to talk about.

Road trip, cross the States, Max.

Yeah, it's going to happen as long as you're funded it, Mark. Right. Give us a like and share and subscribe on YouTube. Thanks for everybody for watching. I really appreciate your comments. Sorry if we didn't get to them, we will be back throughout this week, maybe back tomorrow as well for an extra episode. But if not, do take it easy. Keep well and fingers crossed that Forest pulled their finger out in the next four games. Forest till we die in these remaining games as Forest bid to survive in the Premier League. Come on, you reds.